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Originally posted by RJT Check out the description of my first graduate level seminar class: So - my question to Craig (and anyone else who wants to discuss it - I'm looking at you Alon, Halcyon, Jiveboguy, etc.), does the notion that a religious foundation for ethics and duty can be derived entirely from reason and without divine revelation seem at all plausible to you?

totally plausible... this is the reason why I stopped reading C.S. Lewis, as Lewis was arguing the same concept rather poorly.

The come back is this. In any 'pack' animal it becomes necessary to align yourself with other members of your pack in order to succeed.

You just translate that 'alignment' concept to humans and its a great argument for the basis of ethics. I.e. I am ethical not because of god, but because in order to succeed I have to work together with my human pack, because together we form a super entity that has enhanced survival characteristics than if we were all loners.

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Originally posted by Subey totally plausible... this is the reason why I stopped reading C.S. Lewis, as Lewis was arguing the same concept rather poorly. The come back is this. In any 'pack' animal it becomes necessary to align yourself with other members of your pack in order to succeed. You just translate that 'alignment' concept to humans and its a great argument for the basis of ethics. I.e. I am ethical not because of god, but because in order to succeed I have to work together with my human pack, because together we form a super entity that has enhanced survival characteristics than if we were all loners.

You're confusing ethics and morals. Ethics are situational, morals are absolute.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard You're confusing ethics and morals. Ethics are situational, morals are absolute.

But if ethics are an iterative process it could become near absolute.

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by venomX But if ethics are an iterative process it could become near absolute.

near absolute is not absolute.

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard near absolute is not absolute.

Agreed. I am not one for absolutes in any case, so it's close enough for me.

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard You're confusing ethics and morals. Ethics are situational, morals are absolute.

Does the distinction matter if the foundation of both can be reasonably well traced back to the adaptive advantages of a pack social construct?

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Originally posted by RJT So - my question to Craig (and anyone else who wants to discuss it - I'm looking at you Alon, Halcyon, Jiveboguy, etc.), does the notion that a religious foundation for ethics and duty can be derived entirely from reason and without divine revelation seem at all plausible to you?

No, it is not plausible at all. It is not even plausible that any foundation for ethics and duty could be derived entirely from reason. Reason is a faculty; logic is a system; and neither of them is going to 'imagine' you up any morals or ethics on its own.

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Originally posted by Subey Does the distinction matter if the foundation of both can be reasonably well traced back to the adaptive advantages of a pack social construct?

Morality cannot have a basis in pack social order as such an order is in constant flux. If morality were based on social order then morality would also have to be in flux. Look at a pack of wolves for instance: as long as the alpha male is strong then deffering to his will would be moral in as much as being in the alpha's good graces is advantageous to the individual pack member. however, the instant the alpha becomes weaker then an individual pack member it would become moral to oppose (perhaps kill) the alpha.

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Originally posted by RJT [may] religious foundation for ethics and duty ... be derived entirely from reason and without divine revelation...?

no.

it's incredible they pay people to teach crap like that. he/she should be doing something more productive than pondering about one's navel.

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Last edited by Spacey Orange on Sep-06-2007 at 17:47

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Scott has been introduced to the rave scene, and Ecstasy, by Craig. The two of them go out on the weekends, with some of Craigs friends, and stay up all night, dancing in a drug-fueled trance.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on Apr-26-2011 at 07:48

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Originally posted by Spacey Orange no. it's incredible they pay people to teach crap like that. he/she should be doing something more productive than pondering about one's navel.

You are without a doubt the last person to be complaining about anything anyone else does.

Your very existence is nothing more than a waste of matter.

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Originally posted by RJT You are without a doubt the last person to be complaining about anything anyone else does. Your very existence is nothing more than a waste of matter.

touche

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UnauthorizedTranceAddict Youtube Channel where I post older mixes from the TA DJ Promotion Forum

My mixes:

Still up:1:2

Down:3:4:5