quote:

Originally posted by venomX Another more common behaviour is typing on a keyboard. At first, you have to look at the keyboard for every stroke to make sure you are hitting the right key in order to convey the correct message. As you practice more and more, you over learn 'typing', i.e. you know where every key is and you no longer have to consciously decide where to press. At this point you can focus your energy on other endeavours such as what to type, or what particular ideas you want to convey and in what manner. The list goes on and on. Conscious thinking is usually more of a 'correction' mechanism. It is used to change automatic behaviours using feedback from other parts of the brain.

I don't disagree in principle with any of your examples. The problem is that none of them shed light on where the conscious thought might be originating.

Where the letter 'o' is on a keyboard isn't a factor when I think. But starting a paragraph with an 'introduction sentence' does shape my thought without me being conscious that I am writing an 'introduction sentence'

I think the best thing is for me to start over.

***

The most important question in this field of inquiry that I can think of is, "What does my conscious mind see when it interacts with the subconscious?"

I've queried my brain many times about this question, and it has come up with the following analogy, which can be summed up as, "Thought Architecture" which I will now explain.

***

We start with the following analogy. A Castle = A complex idea/concept and in terms of the example that follows it will represent specifically 'Capitalism'.
And the lens that I perceive this castle with we will call the 'third eye'. This will be explained in a moment.

Now let's say I want to talk to you about the castle. My third eye can view the castle from any angle, and from any level of magnification.

So my conscious mind thinks, 'capitalism is stupid', and I say to you, 'capitalism is stupid'. All my conscious mind contains when I thought that was really is just a word. Simultaneously to this thought my third eye is looking at the castle from a high vantage point so that the entire structure can be seen, and the entire structure has a definite form that conveys specific meaning (i.e. I can see towers, a courtyard, a moat, a portcullis etc.)

If you ask me what is stupid about it. I then respond, 'it results in an unequal distribution of wealth and I think that is evil'. What happened simultaneously was my third eye zoomed in on a tower of the castle, and that tower conveyed the that specific information. My third eye knows that tower, and where it is located relative to all the other parts of the castle. In other words it doesn't get lost exploring the castle.

***

To flip this analogy. Let's say I am sharing with you a concept you are unfamiliar with. I speak a sentence to you, and your conscious mind again can only hold a few sentences at a time in its mental context, but it takes each sentence and uses them as bricks to build a castle that your third eye sees. As you ask me questions your third eye is seeing that the castle you are building is missing a tower, so you want clarification to know what kind of tower to build there.

In effect you don't have to consciously 'hold' what I said in the first paragraph of this post in your consciousness, because your 'third eye' is 'holding' it, because it is overseeing the construction of the castle.

***

This "Thought Architecture" model seems accurate because it models how through the exchange of only a few words in the conscious mind and in speech that we can manage to manipulate and use complex ideas without much difficulty.


The question for me then what does this model tell us about the nature of conscious thought? And to me the crux of that question is, what's is my conscious mind's relationship with the 'third eye' that sees in this "thought architecture" environment?

It seems to me that the "thought architecture" realm is where the real thought is occurring because that is the only place where 'capitalism' has enough form as a cohesive entity to be thought about. And that my conscious mind is the reflection of the 'third eye' that thinks there.

That's my argument... though I would not be surprised if I didn't communicate it well

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your pearl casting hero

You guys are starting to hurt my head. Its much simpler - there's not really a plan in this world. Because if there was, if you were aware of things that has happened before they actually did, then life will be pointless. You will also become confused. So its like a game. You start a move, and then the whole sequence of events is in action, and some other factor might have an effect along the way.


When you start writing your sentence, you dont really have it already finished in your subconsciousness already. Your subconsciousness is merely the storage place for all your experience. Like a live recording motion picture of sorts. Its like you start typing a sentence (that you thought of beforehand), and then halfway through you type a wrong letter, and have to come back to adjust it, and then everything else is thrown off the original plan. Things happen in sequence, with no plan.

EDIT: Fukkkk ... long day at my chemical labs at college. I will elaborate more on the subconsciousness later.

I think in this thread there's a mixup between the conscious and subconscious. The brain and its ability to digest information and give quick methods of response is one thing, on a conscious level. Subconsciousness has more to do with your gut feeling, your supernatural assistance as one might say, your driving force. If it was just the brain, we'd be acting like machines. There's definitely more to us than science. It can be related to the concept of soul.

Anyhow, I am going to get some sleep ...

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Last edited by Magnetonium on Sep-21-2007 at 20:11

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt Hate to say it...but I always thought languages like this were stupid. It sounds like caveman language When I started learning spanish, I thought damn...no wonder Mexico is still a third world country! The language is so imprecise and clumsy.. They lack basic conjuctions like like "won't" or "didn't". In order to say something like "We didn't go to the mall", you have to say the positive sentence "We went to the mall" and add a "no" at end.. "We went to the mall no". And instead of saying "The hotel is over there.", it would be something like.. "It is over there, the hotel." I know it's wrong...but after learning some of the language, I think less of the people who speak it. For God's sake...why can't they use words in the proper order...a natural train of thought instead of this ass backwards junk?

Language itself and its construction is the basis of our consciousness, and our perception of time.

Here is a circumstantial experiment to illustrate my point. I assumes you have a basic idea of how a combustion engine works.


Close your eyes, and picture a see through car. Now picture the pistons of the engine working, and because it is a rear wheel car, picture the rear axle spinning.

Now picture those two processes simultaneously. I can't do it. I can move my center of focus back and forth between the two, but I can't actually keep both in focus at the same time.

And think about how simple that really is since both movements are fixed and repetitives (i.e. the moving axle doesn't really change). It would seem an easier task than the manipulation and weaving of complex concepts.



Special thanks to Franz Harary c/o Ideacity and the sega racer Vanishing Point!

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your pearl casting hero

quote:

Originally posted by Subey I don't disagree in principle with any of your examples. The problem is that none of them shed light on where the conscious thought might be originating. Where the letter 'o' is on a keyboard isn't a factor when I think. But starting a paragraph with an 'introduction sentence' does shape my thought without me being conscious that I am writing an 'introduction sentence' I think the best thing is for me to start over. *** The most important question in this field of inquiry that I can think of is, "What does my conscious mind see when it interacts with the subconscious?" I've queried my brain many times about this question, and it has come up with the following analogy, which can be summed up as, "Thought Architecture" which I will now explain. *** We start with the following analogy. A Castle = A complex idea/concept and in terms of the example that follows it will represent specifically 'Capitalism'. And the lens that I perceive this castle with we will call the 'third eye'. This will be explained in a moment. Now let's say I want to talk to you about the castle. My third eye can view the castle from any angle, and from any level of magnification. So my conscious mind thinks, 'capitalism is stupid', and I say to you, 'capitalism is stupid'. All my conscious mind contains when I thought that was really is just a word. Simultaneously to this thought my third eye is looking at the castle from a high vantage point so that the entire structure can be seen, and the entire structure has a definite form that conveys specific meaning (i.e. I can see towers, a courtyard, a moat, a portcullis etc.) If you ask me what is stupid about it. I then respond, 'it results in an unequal distribution of wealth and I think that is evil'. What happened simultaneously was my third eye zoomed in on a tower of the castle, and that tower conveyed the that specific information. My third eye knows that tower, and where it is located relative to all the other parts of the castle. In other words it doesn't get lost exploring the castle. *** To flip this analogy. Let's say I am sharing with you a concept you are unfamiliar with. I speak a sentence to you, and your conscious mind again can only hold a few sentences at a time in its mental context, but it takes each sentence and uses them as bricks to build a castle that your third eye sees. As you ask me questions your third eye is seeing that the castle you are building is missing a tower, so you want clarification to know what kind of tower to build there. In effect you don't have to consciously 'hold' what I said in the first paragraph of this post in your consciousness, because your 'third eye' is 'holding' it, because it is overseeing the construction of the castle. *** This "Thought Architecture" model seems accurate because it models how through the exchange of only a few words in the conscious mind and in speech that we can manage to manipulate and use complex ideas without much difficulty. The question for me then what does this model tell us about the nature of conscious thought? And to me the crux of that question is, what's is my conscious mind's relationship with the 'third eye' that sees in this "thought architecture" environment? It seems to me that the "thought architecture" realm is where the real thought is occurring because that is the only place where 'capitalism' has enough form as a cohesive entity to be thought about. And that my conscious mind is the reflection of the 'third eye' that thinks there. That's my argument... though I would not be surprised if I didn't communicate it well

I agree mostly with your arguments. I think it is a pretty accurate description of how subconscious processes work. Also, for me, the relationship between the conscious mind and that 'third eye' is mostly as you stated. I would tend to agree that most processing is done by that third eye.

I disagree however with your interpretation of the conscious mind as being merely a reflection of the 'third eye'. The conscious mind for me has 2 types of functioning. One is the learning process, which I already argued before. The second one is to filter, adjust and decide. Let's take your writing example:

quote:

Let's look at the previous sentence, It is complete. In the sense that every part fits together with every other part. My conscious awareness of it is a little bit hard to describe, but as I type, I hold the word that I am typing in my head, and a tiny bit of what came before and what comes next.

Even though you may hold in your conscious the words or structures that that your 'third eye' has fed it, you don't just type it out right away. You take the words and then you consciously evaluate the validity of them in the broader context. Say your 'third eye' feeds you a particular word that it has determined that on average will follow in the particular grammar and semantic structure you have already typed. Now say that you consider yourself to be a stylish, colorful writer. You may want to signal back to your 'third eye' that that particular word won't do. So it will feed your conscious mind another word that might be used less frequently, but that you have learned and is part of your lexicon and it has determined might be appropriate. Now this time your conscious mind has determined that this particular word adds the stylistic element you were looking for. The word is then 'approved' and your conscious mind proceeds to signal your motor system that it should engage in typing it.

Now this is the second function I believe the conscious mind has. So basically I don't agree with the conscious mind merely being a reflection of the 'third eye' because it is able to discriminate, organize, acquire and process information. Discrimination and organization are evident in the filtering and adjustment processes it can engage in, such as in the writing example. The acquirement and processing of information I believe is evident in the learning to play the drums example.

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quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium You guys are starting to hurt my head. Its much simpler - there's not really a plan in this world. Because if there was, if you were aware of things that has happened before they actually did, then life will be pointless. You will also become confused. So its like a game. You start a move, and then the whole sequence of events is in action, and some other factor might have an effect along the way. When you start writing your sentence, you dont really have it already finished in your subconsciousness already. Your subconsciousness is merely the storage place for all your experience. Like a live recording motion picture of sorts. Its like you start typing a sentence (that you thought of beforehand), and then halfway through you type a wrong letter, and have to come back to adjust it, and then everything else is thrown off the original plan. Things happen in sequence, with no plan. EDIT: Fukkkk ... long day at my chemical labs at college. I will elaborate more on the subconsciousness later. I think in this thread there's a mixup between the conscious and subconscious. The brain and its ability to digest information and give quick methods of response is one thing, on a conscious level. Subconsciousness has more to do with your gut feeling, your supernatural assistance as one might say, your driving force. If it was just the brain, we'd be acting like machines. There's definitely more to us than science. It can be related to the concept of soul. Anyhow, I am going to get some sleep ...

I think you might be confused between subconscious and conscious processes. Subconscious processes are merely things that your brain does that you are not aware of, such as coordinating your walking, processing light waves in order for you to see and evaluating and retrieving different semantic structures according to their appropriateness to what you are attempting to say. There is no 'driving fore' or 'supernatural assistance' in your brain. Your 'gut feeling' comes from information processing in particular brain structures that happen in a speedy, parallel, subconscious manner. There usually called heuristic processes. Next time your walking ask yourself this, who is coordinating all the proper muscles contractions? Who is evaluating your movements and the properties of the surface in order to maintain your equilibrium? Who is triggering proper ab/lower back muscle contractions and relaxations in order for you to be moving while upright? This what subconscious processes are.

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quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by venomX I think you might be confused between subconscious and conscious processes. Subconscious processes are merely things that your brain does that you are not aware of, such as coordinating your walking, processing light waves in order for you to see and evaluating and retrieving different semantic structures according to their appropriateness to what you are attempting to say. There is no 'driving fore' or 'supernatural assistance' in your brain. Your 'gut feeling' comes from information processing in particular brain structures that happen in a speedy, parallel, subconscious manner. There usually called heuristic processes. Next time your walking ask yourself this, who is coordinating all the proper muscles contractions? Who is evaluating your movements and the properties of the surface in order to maintain your equilibrium? Who is triggering proper ab/lower back muscle contractions and relaxations in order for you to be moving while upright? This what subconscious processes are.

I believe that subconsciousness goes beyond that, but I am very tight on the words today, after having 2 massive labs at college today that exhausted me. I would easily add walking, processing light waves and such to the conscious mind, because those are the functions of the brain that have been easily detected by scientists. Because I believe that brain is a multi tasker. Things on the subconscious go deeper, and mostly cannot be detected precisely by our instruments. I believe that the subconsciousness guides such things as our feelings and genetic characteristics that get passed on to the character. I wont indulge in details, its just my personal belief and there's no evidence to prove it. Other than some books that will be passed as heresy by scientists. I believe also in the concept of a soul ...

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Oh, you consciously decipher light waves?

edit: Or even better, you consciously breathe and beat your heart during sleep?

quote:

Originally posted by Sunsnail Oh, you consciously decipher light waves?

Definitely. The brain is the world's most powerful computer. Actually, things dont look exactly as we see them, other creatures and other human-like beings will see them differently perhaps, since our eyes are tuned in a special way to adjust to our sun, the environment, the gravity and other forces. Under different magnifications and colours the world looks different. Just like the microscope and different lenses. How would the world look like to a fish?


Remember a famous saying that only about 2% of our brain is used up in our lifetime ;-) imagine what the rest is used for, and how we havent unlocked our brain which holds many more amazing powers and abilities. Ok, you can laugh at me if you want, but its not only my belief.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Sunsnail edit: Or even better, you consciously breathe and beat your heart during sleep?

If you think about breathing, do the roles change as to what controls the breathing? Its been proven that you can change your breathing patterns. Your brain or body or whatever then assumes this pattern if its done a certain number of times so that the brain remembers it. If it was subconscious, then the breathing would be the same for everyone, but every person has it differently and can change it.

Think yourself into breathing. Then it will not be the same. Your brain performs so many calculations every second, ranging from thinking, to breathing, to contact with skin, to whatever else. Most of these are not comprehended by your thinking, unless you choose to think or concentrate on a specific process(es). So in a way you can label your entire brain process as subconscious ...

I think the debate here is to determine what the conscious and subconscious characteristics of some of the body functions are.

As for your normal body functions while sleeping - evolution can explain that. You dont just breathe while you're sleeping - you're digestive systems are at work, too. Your body never stop working until you're dead. Do you suggest that subconscious processes also do such things as breaking down your food in the stomache because you dont think about it?

EDIT: You can apply the same logic to such repetitive tasks as walking and running ...

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

Last edited by Magnetonium on Sep-25-2007 at 23:33

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium If you think about breathing, do the roles change as to what controls the breathing? Its been proven that you can change your breathing patterns. Your brain or body or whatever then assumes this pattern if its done a certain number of times so that the brain remembers it. If it was subconscious, then the breathing would be the same for everyone, but every person has it differently and can change it. Think yourself into breathing. Then it will not be the same. Your brain performs so many calculations every second, ranging from thinking, to breathing, to contact with skin, to whatever else. Most of these are not comprehended by your thinking, unless you choose to think or concentrate on a specific process(es). So in a way you can label your entire brain process as subconscious ... I think the debate here is to determine what the conscious and subconscious characteristics of some of the body functions are. As for your normal body functions while sleeping - evolution can explain that. You dont just breathe while you're sleeping - you're digestive systems are at work, too. Your body never stop working until you're dead. Do you suggest that subconscious processes also do such things as breaking down your food in the stomache because you dont think about it? EDIT: You can apply the same logic to such repetitive tasks as walking and running ...

If you read my arguments on learning you would have noticed that I accounted for those changes. After all you LEARN how to walk, run, type, ride a bike, etc... No one here said that subconscious processes are immutable. Also, it is already quite clear which processes are conscious and subconscious. I really don't understand where the waters are muddied for you. What is currently under debate in most circles is how consciousness works, not which processes are conscious or subconscious. In any case I won't argue against your points if they are impossible to back up (with evidence of course). I entertain all other arguments if they are feasible, i.e. Subey's argument, even with his re branding, is quite accurate by current cognitive science findings (except for the consciousness merely reflecting the subconscious processes that feed into it).

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quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome