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Originally posted by CHRles Prior to the 20th Century the population of the land now known as Israel was pretty small. Cyrus, the Palestinian land actually extended way beyond modern day Israel. British Palestine included both Jordan and Israel. In the early part of 20th century Arabs from British Palestine however saw themselves as no different from the Arabs of Syria. They didnt want their own representatives when dealing with the Turks or the Brits. Furtermore, Jews living in Palestine were considered Jewish Palestinians, and had a Palestinian passport. So just what exactly is a palestinian is debateable. Also, keep in mind that 20 percent of the population within Israel itself is Arab. As for Ahmadenijad, you don't see him talking about a land for the Kurds - why? You also don't hear him talking about returning Istanbul to the Christians even though for most of its history that city was a religious center for Christians second only to Rome. He doesn't even mention thhe fact that throughout most of the Middle East's history, Arabs and persians treated Jews better then they were treated in Europe. Ahmedanijad needs to focus more on listening to the problems in his own country: http://www.meforum.org/article/1743 He should leave the issue of Israel to Israel and its neighbors. Did you know, for example, that Jordan and the West Bank are considering reunifying the West Bank with the East Bank: http://www.meforum.org/article/923

Are you saying that palestinians dont exist as a race and they are actually Syrian? Do you think they just made up their identity?

Also, borders were very grey when the british began to actually carve out nationhood. That doesnt mean that there were no indeginous populations residing and cultivating land and having a family line running through their lands for centuries.

Palestinians are distinctive compared to other arabs. They have a different heritage, accent, history, dance, etc... please dont lump up all arabs as one.. there are different sub ethnicities

Again.. do you think millions of palestinians just adopted a fabricated culture??? LOOOOL

you sound like ahmadinejad now

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Originally posted by CHRles He should leave the issue of Israel to Israel and its neighbors.

oh wow really?yet Israel is allowd to talk all it wants about how evil Iran and how they have to bomb their nuclear facilities? Why isnt Israel leaving the issues of Iran to Iran?

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Ahmadinejad isn't worse than some Israeli minsters
e.g Avigdor Lieberman

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IMEU, Nov 12, 2006 On October 30th, Israel's Knesset approved the appointment of Avigdor Lieberman as Minister for Strategic Threats and deputy Prime Minister in a 61 to 38 vote. Lieberman has advocated for various forms of ridding Israel of its Palestinian citizens. His party, Yisrael Beitenu (Israel Our Home), which holds 11 seats in the Knesset, moved from the opposition to become a member of the coalition government. A major Israeli daily, Haaretz, said in an editorial that the "choice of the most unrestrained and irresponsible man around for this job constitutes a strategic threat in its own right." Who is Avigdor Lieberman and why is he so controversial? Lieberman was born in Moldova in the Soviet Union. In 1978, at the age of 20, he immigrated to Israel and received automatic citizenship under Israel's Law of Return. He now lives in the illegal Nokdin settlement in the occupied West Bank. A nightclub bouncer turned politician, Lieberman: served as Director General of the Likud Party from 1993 to 1996, and as Director General of the Prime Minister's office from 1996 to 1997. A staunch opponent of the peace process and of any territorial concessions to Palestinians, he resigned this post and left Likud in protest over then-Prime Minister Netanyahu's signing of the U.S.-brokered Wye River Memorandum. In 1998, Lieberman called for the flooding of Egypt by bombing the Aswan Dam in retaliation for Egyptian support for Yasser Arafat. In 1999, he founded the Yisrael Beitenu (Israel Our Home) party and was first elected to Knesset. In 2001, as Minister of National Infrastructure, Lieberman proposed that the West Bank be divided into four cantons, with no central Palestinian government and no possibility for Palestinians to travel between the cantons. In 2002, the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth quoted Lieberman in a Cabinet meeting saying that the Palestinians should be given an ultimatum that "At 8am we'll bomb all the commercial centers...at noon we'll bomb their gas stations...at two we'll bomb their banks..." In 2003, Haaretz reported that Lieberman called for thousands of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses to take them there. In May 2004, Lieberman proposed a plan that called for the transfer of Israeli territory with Palestinian populations to the Palestinian Authority. Likewise, Israel would annex the major Jewish settlement blocs on the Palestinian West Bank. If applied, his plan would strip roughly one-third of Israel's Palestinian citizens of their citizenship. A "loyalty test" would be applied to those who desired to remain in Israel. Those committed to making Israel a state of all its citizens, including the Palestinian minority, would be stripped of voting rights. This plan to trade territory with the Palestinian Authority is a revision of Lieberman's earlier calls for the forcible transfer of Palestinian citizens of Israel from their land. Lieberman stated in April 2002 that there was "nothing undemocratic about transfer." Also in May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Palestinian citizens would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said. In May 2006, Lieberman called for the killing of Arab members of Knesset who meet with members of the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority. Lieberman championed a recent bill adopted by Israel's Cabinet that raises the minimum a party must achieve to enter Knesset from 2 percent to 10 percent. This would eliminate parties representing Palestinian citizens of Israel, whose combined strength has never reached 10 percent. What does Yisrael Beitenu stand for? Yisrael Beiteinu ("Israel is our home") enjoys strong support among recent immigrants from areas of the former Soviet Union. Its primary concern is the "demographic threat" posed by the Palestinian population of Israel and the Occupied Territories. Formerly united with parties that would have addressed this concern by the forced transfer of Palestinians citizens outside of Israel's borders, Yisrael Beiteinu now supports the exchange of territory mentioned above. The party also aims to encourage Jewish immigration by supporting economic incentives for new Jewish immigrants in order to bolster Jewish demographic predominance.

http://imeu.net/news/article003471.shtml

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Zionism NATIONALIZED judaism.. its a new phenomena that was succeeded by these religious jewish colonizers. If the christians and muslims have a religious right to that place.. why is it majority jewish?

Who cares 'who has the majority' if everyone has access?

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Why are there laws that try topreserve the jewish character.... BECUASE THEY STOLE THAT LAND FROM THE PALESTINIANS

The U.N. gave them the land it was not, 'Stolen'
Funny how you're not as angry with the same people that carved out a stake here in North America...
Where's your disdain there?

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
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quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer oh wow really?yet Israel is allowd to talk all it wants about how evil Iran and how they have to bomb their nuclear facilities? Why isnt Israel leaving the issues of Iran to Iran?

Iran's leader talks about sweeping under the table Israel's right to exist. Iran having nuclear power is seen as a way to accomplish this feat, so this too is a threat to Israel just as Ahmedanijad's words are.
Isreal bombing Iranian nuclear facilities will get some world reaction. However, that reaction pales in comparison to Iran targetting the state of Israel.
Consider this: Iran targets Jerusalem, which not only has a signficiant religious value to Muslims, a lot of muslims also live in and around Jerusalem.
Iran targets Haifa, and again it thereby will target a large Arab population that lives in and around Haifa.
Even with Tel Aviv you have Arab population in places like Jaffa, or quite a few arab settlements east of metro Tel Aviv.
If Iran targets southern Israel then nuclear threat could spill into Gaza, or to the Bedouin population, or further south even into Egypt and Jordan.

Don't believe me? Look at a map.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Palestinians are distinctive compared to other arabs. They have a different heritage, accent, history, dance, etc... please dont lump up all arabs as one.. there are different sub ethnicities

Correct. The Arabs of North Africa (Bebers if I'm not mistaken) or Iraq are different. Are Yemenites considered Arabs? b/c I know they're vastly different culturally.
However, the Arabic tribes of Jordan, Syria, Israel, and Lebanon aren't all that different from each other.

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Originally posted by M.Johan Ahmadinejad isn't worse than some Israeli minsters e.g Avigdor Lieberman http://imeu.net/news/article003471.shtml

Thx for posting that M. Johan. Lieberman never would have gotten this far without the rise of Hamas's power in Gaza, or with the inclusion of Hezbollah into the Lebanese government. LOL @ him being a former nightclub bouncer.
But seriously, this guy is a fascist and I see where the comparison to Ahemdanijad comes from.

You're from Egypt, right? I know the Egyptian leadership closely monitors developements in both Israel and in the Palestinian territories. Egypt's leaders have gone on record a number of times this past year saying that the peace process needs to move forward, or the situation in the region would continue to deteriorate.

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Originally posted by Lira From what I understand, they tried to find Jews an uninhabited spot, where they could settle without major problems, but they wanted to go back to their original land even though they had been driven out to other regions some time ago. In the world's most unstable region. It doesn't seem like a good idea now, then, or even before that No matter how important their religion is for them, and how fair it is to give them land, that was the one of the worst spots they could've ever chosen.

Bingo!

ESPECIALLY since it was done without the consent of the local Arab populations.

Granted, what's done is done. But it's not out of the realm of sanity for someone to point out that the Palestinians got shafted. And provocations aside, Israel hasn't exactly acted in a way to ameliorate the situation either.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Who cares 'who has the majority' if everyone has access? The U.N. gave them the land it was not, 'Stolen' Funny how you're not as angry with the same people that carved out a stake here in North America... Where's your disdain there?

The UN "GAVE" them that land?

Did the UN OWN it?

Also.. the UN partitioned the land and the Israeli's didnt even listen to the plan.. they took 80% of palestine when they were alotted only 56%.. which is still fucked up seeing as they only comprised only 33% of the population and owned only 7% of the land and were recent immigrants from europe.

Im not talking about North America.. that happened hundreds of years ago... i hate when people bring this shit up all the time about north america being made on Native land. Unfortunately, colonization was common practice back then and it was brutal.. that happened 500 years ago..

whats fucked up about israel is that it did the exact same thing but only a mere 60 years ago. The people who they displaced are still living in tents in neighboring refugee camps.


Until all those palestinians fade away... this will be a CURRENT issue.. THATS THE DIFFERENCE


P.S Ask a christian how fun it is living under Jewish laws in Israel

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

Last edited by Cyrus King on Oct-07-2007 at 10:11

Cyrus, you might be a little confused with history.
Native Americans were pushed back into reservations even 100 years ago. Read about states like Oklahoma, which only became a state exactly 100 years ago:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma

Or what about the India-Pakistan conflict a few decades later? Where a mass migration between Indians and Pakistanis was pretty much forced? That took on a dimension of tens of millions of people.

Or you might want to study up about numerous countries in Africa where you have different tribes that ended up being split into 2-3 countries?

Or about what happened in the Soviet Union where different ethnicites were moved around.

As for the status Israel, it was put to a vote at the UN since the UK had a mandate over it, and was getting ready to leave the area. So the situation was adressed in the UN.
Now then, as you stated, the UN originally alotted half the land of Israel to the Jews. This was accepted by the Jews, but not by the other side. A war ensued between Israel and ALL of its neighbors. After World War II and the holocaust the Arab states greatly underestimated the Jews. They fought hard to defend their newfound freedom, and they won.

If you want to talk about more recent events that the UN hasnt approved why don't you talk about Turkey's invasion of Cyprus? Or Iraqs invasion of Kuwait?

I wasnt going to get into this but since you brought it up...Christians seem to have no problem living in Israel. Lebanon on other hand is a bit of a sore topic since in the first half of the 20th century they were the majority there. This is due to a couple of things: The Levant region was always populated with some Christians going back to pretty much the time of Christ (although Jesus himself was a Jew). The second wave of Christianity in the Middle East happened during the crusades. The third wave was only a couple of hundreds of years ago when Christian missionaries made their way to the region.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King P.S Ask a christian how fun it is living under Jewish laws in Israel

Why don't I just ask you since you seem to know.
Personally, I've never heard of any problems with Christians living in Israel?
Anyone else?

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."