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Originally posted by Trancer-X Don't strain yourself by trying to come up with a witty reply. Your other brain cell might not be able to handle this cruel world if it were orphaned.

you tell me then genius. where do they get the bombs?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and yet women are now allowed to go to school and to work. if you don't think that's worth anything then please elaborate why.

I very much am happy about that. But should we be invading countries to give their people human rights? How about letting the people themselves fight for their freedom? Why concentrate on foreigners, when we have our own problems at home. Poverty, taxes, bad education, unaffordable college. Why are we spending hundreds of billions of dollars on war, when we the citizens need that money??? This is not what the American founding fathers wanted for our country...

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BTW, how does this article highlight your point? (if you had any)

Um, you have teenagers wanting to be suicide bombers. How do you stop this? By bombing and killing? Sure hasn't worked for the 6 years we've been trying has it?

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a would-be teenage jihadist kills his own parents when they try to convince him how wrong it is. another accidentally kills himself when he has a revelation as to how wrong it is. then for some reason we have Krypton to submit this as evidence to the rest of us how we're the ones who have the problem. not Al Queera. not the Taliban. not Krypton. we, the ones who recognize the perverse fraud that is 21st century jihad, have the problem. sad. the Taliban has resorted to tactics in which two years ago they would have deemed unholy or immoral or cowardly. but for some reason Krypton, at a moments notice, will use it to his political worldview's advantage and say to other Americans "you have the problem", not me. not Krypton.

Are we the fucking daddy of the world????????????????????

Leave them alone, and they won't be volunteering in droves to be suicide bombers!! It's common sense!!

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Originally posted by Krypton Um, you have teenagers wanting to be suicide bombers. How do you stop this? By bombing and killing? Sure hasn't worked for the 6 years we've been trying has it?

Hearts and minds ring a bell? Education? Good governance? Creating a viable economy?

There will always be few wackos who're just nuts, but generally you give people opportunity to work for a decent wage without having to fear survival, they usually get a long well with others.

This dude was getting paid by Taliban to be a suicide bomber. What would be the odds that this guy be a suicide bomber if he was making a decent living? Desperation, hopelessness fueled by religious anger turns out suicide bombers.

(And other reports seems to suggest that a lot of suicide bombers are not Afghan in origin but foreigners)

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Are we the fucking daddy of the world???????????????????? Leave them alone, and they won't be volunteering in droves to be suicide bombers!! It's common sense!!

leave Afghanistan alone? I guess you're not much of an advocate of human rights, among other things that the left profess to uphold.

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Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by EvilTree Hearts and minds ring a bell? Education? Good governance? Creating a viable economy?

Hearts and minds? LOL...

So are we going to invade Pakistan so we can shut down their madrassas? Because that's where these teenagers are coming from...

It's not about hearts and minds. Are you going to pursuade very independent people to accept NATO in their ancient lands? I don't think so. Their pretext is foreign occupation, always will be.

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There will always be few wackos who're just nuts, but generally you give people opportunity to work for a decent wage without having to fear survival, they usually get a long well with others.

Agreed, but they will never get it under foreign occupation...

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This dude was getting paid by Taliban to be a suicide bomber. What would be the odds that this guy be a suicide bomber if he was making a decent living? Desperation, hopelessness fueled by religious anger turns out suicide bombers.

Can you really pay a suicide bomber?

Would you blow yourself up for money?

They blow themselves up because they believe they are going to heaven. They do it because they think its honorable. Who are they targeting. Foreign occupiers. That is their stated mission, to expel foreign occupiers. It's been like that in 1960's Vietnam, was like that in 1980's afghanistan, and its their stated purpose in Iraq today.

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(And other reports seems to suggest that a lot of suicide bombers are not Afghan in origin but foreigners)

Perhaps in Iraq, but not in Afghanistan. And again, what is their stated purpose? Expelling foreign occupation.

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leave Afghanistan alone? I guess you're not much of an advocate of human rights, among other things that the left profess to uphold.

They have the right of self-determination, to develop their own institutions however they see fit, regardless of how a foreigner like you or me views it. Freedom is fought for by the people who obtain it, not by foreign powers.

Just think for a second. If their stated purpose is to expel the foreign occupier (has been for centuries), why not stop being the foreign occupier. You'll have almost no suicide bombers...

No foreigner has ever tamed afghanistan or Iraq, or Iran... The British tried in the 1800's to conquer Afghanistan from India, and got beat. They took over Iranian oil in 1906 and the Iranians chose to nationalize in the 1950's... Why do we have to be a sugar daddy in every civil war in third world countries...

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Originally posted by Krypton Hearts and minds? LOL... So are we going to invade Pakistan so we can shut down their madrassas? Because that's where these teenagers are coming from...

Yeah, it's a flawed plan right now because Pakis aren't doing much to shut down those madrassas.

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It's not about hearts and minds. Are you going to pursuade very independent people to accept NATO in their ancient lands? I don't think so. Their pretext is foreign occupation, always will be.

NATO isn't going to be permanent presence in Afghanistan. Hard for you to believe, but NATO nations are there to help democratically elected Afghan goverment be able to govern Afghanistan.

At least that's what the vaunted UN Resolutions said.

Exactly what benefit does NATO get from permanent occupation of Afghanistan?

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Can you really pay a suicide bomber? Would you blow yourself up for money? They blow themselves up because they believe they are going to heaven. They do it because they think its honorable. Who are they targeting. Foreign occupiers. That is their stated mission, to expel foreign occupiers. It's been like that in 1960's Vietnam, was like that in 1980's afghanistan, and its their stated purpose in Iraq today.

They blow themselves up so that their destitute family gets paid. Few thousand bucks aren't much to us, certainly not worth killing yourself for, but for these people who have pretty much nothing, it's a shitload of money.

Family is very important to these people.

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Perhaps in Iraq, but not in Afghanistan. And again, what is their stated purpose? Expelling foreign occupation.

It's not foreign occupation

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They have the right of self-determination, to develop their own institutions however they see fit, regardless of how a foreigner like you or me views it. Freedom is fought for by the people who obtain it, not by foreign powers. Just think for a second. If their stated purpose is to expel the foreign occupier (has been for centuries), why not stop being the foreign occupier. You'll have almost no suicide bombers... No foreigner has ever tamed afghanistan or Iraq, or Iran... The British tried in the 1800's to conquer Afghanistan from India, and got beat. They took over Iranian oil in 1906 and the Iranians chose to nationalize in the 1950's... Why do we have to be a sugar daddy in every civil war in third world countries...

There is right and there is wrong. Many of Taliban practices are wrong. Hence why we take a stand whenever Nazis and Rwanda genocide happens. Taliban haven't done anything remotely those loonies have done, but Taliban are just as evil as the Nazis and Rwandans who committed genocide.

People like Taliban, they are not fighting for freedom. They are fighting to impose perverted fundamentalist version of Islam on people that reduces women into secondary role, denying basic freedom of speech, democracy for example. Really, you think these people are fighting for freedom as we understand it?

Once we, as citizens of this earth stop caring about each other, humanity will go down the shits. Yes, it's an imperfect world and we always don't do the right things, but once we stop give a damn about the avg Afghans who just want to live and enjoy the basic freedoms and rights we take for granted, then humanity is doomed.

BTW, Afghan National Army is the guys doing most of the fighting against the Taliban. NATO is there a lot of time in support role.

Oh, and Taliban and people who don't like NATO is a minority. Considering how few the numbers NATO has, if Taliban had anything close to strong enough support, wouldn't you think they'd have formented a strong enough insurgency to force NATO out of Afghanistan like they did against the Soviets?

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Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by EvilTree Yeah, it's a flawed plan right now because Pakis aren't doing much to shut down those madrassas.

Of course its a flawed plan. Aren't you alarmed how we have gone to war on flawed plans? Legally and strategically flawed??

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NATO isn't going to be permanent presence in Afghanistan. Hard for you to believe, but NATO nations are there to help democratically elected Afghan goverment be able to govern Afghanistan. At least that's what the vaunted UN Resolutions said. Exactly what benefit does NATO get from permanent occupation of Afghanistan?

The point is, these people will not accept foreign occupiers in their land, and NATO is the main occupying force. Don't get me wrong, their intentions may be good, but strategically, occupying the land, no matter how good the intentions are will result in more jihad fatwas, suicide bombings, and insurgencies.

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They blow themselves up so that their destitute family gets paid. Few thousand bucks aren't much to us, certainly not worth killing yourself for, but for these people who have pretty much nothing, it's a shitload of money. Family is very important to these people. It's not foreign occupation

Have you studied fundamentalist islam? They do not fight jihad for their families. They fight jihad against percieved enemies of islam, which they very much view foreign occupiers of muslim lands, as enemies of islam. It is about foreign occupation. That is why they fight. That is why they blow themselves up. They believe they will go to heaven because they martyred themselves killing "enemies of islam". You may not view yourself or your army as an enemy of islam, but they very much hold that view.

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There is right and there is wrong. Many of Taliban practices are wrong. Hence why we take a stand whenever Nazis and Rwanda genocide happens. Taliban haven't done anything remotely those loonies have done, but Taliban are just as evil as the Nazis and Rwandans who committed genocide.

Um, what gives you right to tell foreigners how to run their country? Unless Afghanistan under the Taliban began invading their neighbors, thus violating other country's sovereignty, then we will have had a justified excuse to invade them. I'm very sorry for the people of Afghanistan that they have to live under that tyranny, but it is them who have to decide who rules them, not foreigners.

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Really, you think these people are fighting for freedom as we understand it?

Yes, they fight for freedom, but NOT as we understand it. They fight for the freedom of self-determination, to run the country however they want. That is something the western powers don't have the right to do.

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Once we, as citizens of this earth stop caring about each other, humanity will go down the shits. Yes, it's an imperfect world and we always don't do the right things, but once we stop give a damn about the avg Afghans who just want to live and enjoy the basic freedoms and rights we take for granted, then humanity is doomed.

You should care when countries violate each others sovereignty or self-determination. You should not be going about the world preaching how people should run their own countries. That is not our role in this world. Nobody said to stop caring. But what I'm saying is stop the interventionism. Help them help themselves. Don't go in their claiming to be liberators and choosing their government for them...

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BTW, Afghan National Army is the guys doing most of the fighting against the Taliban. NATO is there a lot of time in support role.

What? Source? Sorry, but the 50,000 afghan soldiers of the army are barely trained... Wow, man you might want to be checking your sources. It's the Americans, Canadians, Dutch, and British who are doing most of the fighting, with ANA help, but hardly as operational for you to say they are doing most of the fighting.

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Oh, and Taliban and people who don't like NATO is a minority. Considering how few the numbers NATO has, if Taliban had anything close to strong enough support, wouldn't you think they'd have formented a strong enough insurgency to force NATO out of Afghanistan like they did against the Soviets?

I agree, the taliban supporters are a minority. But someone is funding and supporting the taliban. If you want this insurgency to end, you have to take out that benefactor. Until then, a foreign presence will always give the Taliban and sympathizers (there are millions) a pretext for an insurgent campaign.

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Originally posted by Krypton Of course its a flawed plan. Aren't you alarmed how we have gone to war on flawed plans? Legally and strategically flawed??

?
Legally? lol. Do I really need to go over arguments that's been gone over gazillions of times?
Strategically? I don't think anyone really anticipated that the Taliban could regroup after the beating they got in 2001-02, and this counterinsurgency thing is still something NATO is learning about.

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The point is, these people will not accept foreign occupiers in their land, and NATO is the main occupying force. Don't get me wrong, their intentions may be good, but strategically, occupying the land, no matter how good the intentions are will result in more jihad fatwas, suicide bombings, and insurgencies.

These people are the minority. Seems that a lot of Afghans, at least in Kandahar province, want the Canadians to stay.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen...fa-08671c172e51

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Have you studied fundamentalist islam? They do not fight jihad for their families. They fight jihad against percieved enemies of islam, which they very much view foreign occupiers of muslim lands, as enemies of islam. It is about foreign occupation. That is why they fight. That is why they blow themselves up. They believe they will go to heaven because they martyred themselves killing "enemies of islam". You may not view yourself or your army as an enemy of islam, but they very much hold that view.

That's only part of the reason.
Like I said, it takes a lot for a guy to willing to kill himself for a cause, and the fact is that a lot of suicide bombers are destitute and their family need the money. That few thousand bucks may be that extra incentive for them to blow themselves for the jihad.

Not that you can do much of a study on this, but I really doubt that you'd get many people willing to blow themselves up without the extra cash.

Just how many suicide bombing events happen? For someone in a holy cause, there sure aren't that many taking a run at NATO with a bomb strapped onto them.

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Um, what gives you right to tell foreigners how to run their country? Unless Afghanistan under the Taliban began invading their neighbors, thus violating other country's sovereignty, then we will have had a justified excuse to invade them.

Ok. Fine. I'll address the Taliban thing.
Osama had bases in Afghanistan. Taliban won't give up Osama. Osama blew up WTC. I guess for you, nations giving aid and comfort to your enemy shouldn't be punished?

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I'm very sorry for the people of Afghanistan that they have to live under that tyranny, but it is them who have to decide who rules them, not foreigners.

Yeah. They decided by having a free vote and electing Karzai and rejecting Taliban rule in most of Afghanistan, except some provinces in the South and the North. (Or are you going to claim that internationally monitored election was all rigged?)

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Yes, they fight for freedom, but NOT as we understand it. They fight for the freedom of self-determination, to run the country however they want. That is something the western powers don't have the right to do.

I see. So you think every tribal group in Afghanistan should have a free for all? Regardless of innocent casualties and total ruination of Afghanistan, again?

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You should care when countries violate each others sovereignty or self-determination. You should not be going about the world preaching how people should run their own countries. That is not our role in this world. Nobody said to stop caring. But what I'm saying is stop the interventionism. Help them help themselves. Don't go in their claiming to be liberators and choosing their government for them...

Wow dude. You just said you're willing to watch whenever one group decide to ethinically cleanse others for example. You just said you won't do much when people oppress each other, violate human rights.

Like I said, so when the next Hitler comes to power and he starts killing people for fun, you're going to sit still and not demand something to be done.

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What? Source? Sorry, but the 50,000 afghan soldiers of the army are barely trained... Wow, man you might want to be checking your sources. It's the Americans, Canadians, Dutch, and British who are doing most of the fighting, with ANA help, but hardly as operational for you to say they are doing most of the fighting.

http://ottawasun.com/News/Afghan/20...576954-sun.html

I quote

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What you haven't heard, perhaps, is that the vast majority of the casualties and injuries in this civil war are Afghan. Mentored and supported by Canadian officers. The Afghans are in the forefront of every combat operation in the south and 85% of the casualties treated for war injuries at Kandahar Air Field, the main coalition base in the south, are Afghan army or Afghan police

Not definite fact, however, this suggests that the Afghans aren't sitting back and letting NATO do all the heavy work. They are getting dirty and taking the fight to the Taliban

Barely trained? I agree that ANA is nowhere near ready to take on the full burden, but some units are getting good training and equipment and development of NCO corp is coming along so hopefully in future, ANA can take even greater role. Last I hear, ANA is starting to develop an airforce so that should be interesting.

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by EvilTree ? Legally? lol. Do I really need to go over arguments that's been gone over gazillions of times? Strategically? I don't think anyone really anticipated that the Taliban could regroup after the beating they got in 2001-02, and this counterinsurgency thing is still something NATO is learning about.

I'm talking more broadly about this "War on Terror". In Iraq, and everywhere. Strategically, this is an unwinnable war. To really try to change a culture, I really don't understand it. ANd legally, under the UN Charter, we are not allowed to be violating other nation's sovereignty, no matter how much we hate them.

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These people are the minority. Seems that a lot of Afghans, at least in Kandahar province, want the Canadians to stay. http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen...fa-08671c172e51

No, that is 100% of the population. There is no population in the world who wants their country to be occupied. They may want help, but they don't want to be occupied.

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That's only part of the reason. Like I said, it takes a lot for a guy to willing to kill himself for a cause, and the fact is that a lot of suicide bombers are destitute and their family need the money. That few thousand bucks may be that extra incentive for them to blow themselves for the jihad.

No, it is the sole reason for why they fight their insurgencies. Al-Qaida doesn't exist so they can get money for their families. Again, who are they targeting? They say time and again, foreign occupiers. They make no mention of martying themselves so their family can have money. Watch a few of these martyrdom videos, and please show me one where the guy says he's bombing himself for his family.

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Not that you can do much of a study on this, but I really doubt that you'd get many people willing to blow themselves up without the extra cash. Just how many suicide bombing events happen? For someone in a holy cause, there sure aren't that many taking a run at NATO with a bomb strapped onto them.

Umm, sorry, but the UN projects a record number of suicide bombings in Afghanistan...

http://www.reuters.com/article/feat...s/idUSCOL124483

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Ok. Fine. I'll address the Taliban thing. Osama had bases in Afghanistan. Taliban won't give up Osama. Osama blew up WTC. I guess for you, nations giving aid and comfort to your enemy shouldn't be punished?

Dude, Bush barely gave Afghanistan a chance to even act! They were bombing the Afghans within a month. Mullah Omar had asked Bush for evidence. That is a reasonable diplomatic request all countries make when they are asked to extradite people from inside their countries. Instead, Bush chose to skip all the formalities, and go straight to bombing the shit out of them. And guess what! They STILL didn't get Osama!

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Yeah. They decided by having a free vote and electing Karzai and rejecting Taliban rule in most of Afghanistan, except some provinces in the South and the North. (Or are you going to claim that internationally monitored election was all rigged?)

What allowed the Taliban to take power in the first place? You think they just waltzed in without grass roots support? It's great the Taliban are no longer there, but it's not our responsibility to change other nation's regimes.

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I see. So you think every tribal group in Afghanistan should have a free for all? Regardless of innocent casualties and total ruination of Afghanistan, again?

Uh no, did you understand a word that I said? Insurgents fight so they can decide for their country the way it runs. That is the freedom of self-determination. The Afghans should choose their own future. What we have done is give them one. Very few times in history has a government set up by foreigners ever succeeded.

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Wow dude. You just said you're willing to watch whenever one group decide to ethinically cleanse others for example. You just said you won't do much when people oppress each other, violate human rights.

Again, who made you the daddy of the world? Do you know what interventionism is? It's backing coups, launching invasions, etc. Do you know how to discern this from humanitarian aid? I really hope you do...

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Like I said, so when the next Hitler comes to power and he starts killing people for fun, you're going to sit still and not demand something to be done.

Uh no. Hitler violated other nation's sovereignty. That is against international law. So of course you deal with Hitler. What you are advocating is if a nation does something we don't like, we should invade and change determine their future for them right?

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http://ottawasun.com/News/Afghan/20...576954-sun.html I quote Not definite fact, however, this suggests that the Afghans aren't sitting back and letting NATO do all the heavy work. They are getting dirty and taking the fight to the Taliban Barely trained? I agree that ANA is nowhere near ready to take on the full burden, but some units are getting good training and equipment and development of NCO corp is coming along so hopefully in future, ANA can take even greater role. Last I hear, ANA is starting to develop an airforce so that should be interesting.

Who plans the operations, provides the intel, air support, and PROFESSIONAL ground troops. It's not the Afghans....

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Originally posted by Krypton Have you studied fundamentalist islam? They do not fight jihad for their families.

i think i found my new Krypton quote-of-the-week!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by Q5echo i think i found my new Krypton quote-of-the-week!!!!!!!

Taking me out of context again...

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Life is keeping me busy atm, but I just came across these two articles

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...al_gam_mostview

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Poll shows Afghans want NATO troops to stay ALAN FREEMAN October 18, 2007 at 8:34 PM EDT OTTAWA — A strong majority of Afghans approve of the presence of NATO-led troops in their country, including from Canada, and want the foreign soldiers to remain to fight the Taliban and support reconstruction efforts. In a public opinion poll of Afghans conducted by Environics Research on behalf of The Globe and Mail, the CBC and La Presse, respondents expressed optimism about the future, strong support for the government of President Hamid Karzai and appreciation for the work being done by NATO countries in improving security. In Kandahar, where the Taliban is stronger and violence more pervasive, support for the foreign troops was weaker, but respondents still want the soldiers to stay. According to the survey, conducted in person across the country between Sept. 17 and 24 with a representative sample of 1,578 men and women, 60 per cent said that the presence of foreigners in the country was a good thing. Only 16 per cent said it was a bad thing, while 22 per cent said it was equally good and bad. In Kandahar, where the Canadians are centred, Environics added to the number of respondents and asked a series of special questions; there, 61 per cent said the foreign presence was good while 23 per cent responded that it was a “bad thing.” While a majority of Canadians oppose the military mission in Afghanistan and are anxious to see it end in February, 2009, if not sooner, Afghans are considerably more sanguine about the NATO presence and want it to continue. Nationally, 64 per cent of respondents said they believe the foreigners have made a lot of progress or some progress in the fight against the Taliban. In Kandahar, where the insurgency is still raging, 58 per cent still say the foreigners are doing a good job fighting the Taliban. When asked about the future of the foreign soldiers, only 14 per cent said they should leave right away while 11 per cent said they should leave within a year. Another 27 per cent said the troops should stay between two and five years but the biggest group by far—43 per cent—thought the foreign military presence should last ``however long it takes to defeat the Taliban and restore order.” In Kandahar, the heart of the Taliban movement, there was less enthusiasm for the foreign presence with 32 per cent saying the soldiers should leave right away or within a year, but 18 per cent said the Canadian and other foreigners should stay for two to five years and 31 per cent for as long as it takes to defeat the Taliban. The survey pointed to a general sense of optimism in the country with 60 per cent of the national sample and 61 per cent in Kandahar saying they were better off than five years ago. When it comes to the status of women, 73 per cent of respondents nationally said that the women are better off now than they were in 2002. “It's the first poll ever done by a Canadian organization (in Afghanistan) and the first one that has asked about the Canadian mission and has focused on Kandahar,” said Keith Neuman, group vice president at Environics. When it comes to Canada's presence in the country, it has a relatively high profile, ranking fourth in public awareness after the United States, Germany and the United Kingdom. Asked which foreign countries are present in Afghanistan with soldiers, aid workers and businessmen, 95 per cent named the U.S., Germany 63 per cent, Britain 52 per cent and Canada 46 per cent. But virtually no Afghans are apparently aware that Canadian soldiers are involved in fighting the Taliban. Asked which foreign counties are involved in battling the Taliban, 89 per cent of Afghans mentioned the United States and none mentioned Canada. Even in Kandahar, 90 per cent said the U.S. was fighting the Taliban while only 2 per cent identified Canada. On the other hand, 25 per cent of respondents in Kandahar said that Canada was providing reconstruction assistance, compared with 27 per cent for Britain and 28 per cent for Germany. Yet when the question was asked differently, awareness of the Canadian role was higher. When respondents in Kandahar were asked what the main purpose of the Canadian presence was in the province, 47 per cent responded that the main goal was to fight the Taliban, while 16 per mentioned reconstruction and 10 per cent answered that Canada was there to support the Karzai government. Mr. Neuman said that because the U.S. has by far the most troops in the country, respondents immediately identified American forces as the major fighters against the Taliban but in Kandahar, awareness of the Canadian presence was high and their role was well-regarded, particularly when it comes to reconstruction work. Support for the Taliban also was surprisingly low, with only 14 per cent of respondents nationally said they had very positive or somewhat positive views of the Taliban. In Kandahar, those positives rose to 20 per cent. Respondents also were overwhelmingly opposed to suicide bombings, with 71 per cent nationally saying they were never justified. Despite the enmity towards the Taliban, 74 per cent said they supported negotiations between the Karzai government and Taliban representatives as a way of reducing conflict. In Kandahar, support for talks jumped to 85 per cent.

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded