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TranceAddict Forums > Main Forums > Chill Out Room > A moral question. Nature related.
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Amduscias
[ Disco Groupie ]



Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Aaaallll Ovah!

quote:
Originally posted by Zild
Feed the bird to the cats!
howbout we feed you to the cats? *brings out lions*


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Old Post Nov-05-2007 16:19 
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Zild
Ten City



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: San Antonio, US : TXTA #156

Go for it. I love lions.


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I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

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Old Post Nov-05-2007 16:22  United States
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Ygrene
Dr. Stinkburger Deluxe



Registered: Nov 2003
Location: Totergefuttert

Save the bird, save the world.


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Old Post Nov-05-2007 16:23  United States
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Omega_M
Nostalgia



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Ether

quote:
Originally posted by Ygrene
Save the world, save the bird.


/Al Gore


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Old Post Nov-05-2007 16:26  India
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MrJiveBoJingles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: U.S.

It seems relevant to note here that most species of birds have a very poor sense of smell. There are a few exceptions, like kiwis, albatrosses, and vultures, but I am guessing that the young bird you found was not one of those species.

So the "mother birds rejecting their young because of human scent" is very likely a groundless myth, probably based on the fact that many mammals will reject young for that reason. But birds are not mammals, of course.

Old Post Nov-05-2007 16:35  United States
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Halcyon+On+On
Liebchen



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: midcoast

This is a really good question, Sushi.

It's a bit late for any sort of resolve at this point, but the question remains.

Is it better to let something fend for itself - learn how to do things on its own - become stronger and be all the much better for it? Or is this abandonment (in a sense) too harsh for young things? Perhaps it is only too harsh if the creature dies? I don't think I need to quote Nietzsche at this point. You get the gist.

Where does strength lie though? As humans, we are [typically] very, very social creatures. Most depend on their parents for the first 18 or so years of their life, and it's often completely situational where this dynamic is forfeit. In other words, we encourage this sort of dependency because... well, I dunno - can we answer that? Naturally, an infant is too physically weak to effectively fend for itself, but by 14 or 15 or so, I'd say a human being can definitely defend itself from the dangers of the world about as well as a full-grown adult - the only thing that is lacking is the psychological aspect, no? So socialization has become the new stipulation for adulthood - but how necessary is it to "survive" in one's society? With humans, it's fairly important. People who cannot socialize cannot get a job, cannot raise a family, cannot pay taxes, cannot enjoy reality television and Starbucks coffee. For humans, mere survival, in a naturalist sense, is nowhere near enough.

Is this community sense some sort of point of evolution though? If we did not have help from others and a complex social system, we wouldn't have anywhere close to the sort of supposed "intelligence" we possess as human beings. We would simply have no way to effectively access and communicate our ideas on a species-wide level; every man would be an island, and that is not a point of particular strength, despite the spike of self-reliance. I find it so interesting though, how humans interact with creatures outside of their own species. I don't feel that other animals do this. It's fairly unique. Of course there are examples of symbiosis in nature, but humans do not have some sort of dependency agreement with the creatures we domesticate - cats, dogs, lizards, birds, ....tarantulas (though the jury is out on whether they are actually animals of this world, not just the seed of Satan on 8 legs) - all of these creatures we consider "pets". It's the empathy complex in action - that same reason we look at a young human creature and extend a helping hand when it is in need, but shun a man in rags on the street when he asks for change. That alien sort of empathy we replicate from others, where we can only see the helplessness of something in the scope of our great society. Naturally, there are many varying shades of it, but in general, we take an offset sort of pity upon creatures that are physically unable, yet hold a quiet sort of reverence for those creatures that are exceedingly capable in a very basic sense.

So what's the verdict? Empathy comes naturally to us. Is this a good thing? Or are creatures better off being weeded out so that only the strong and cunning survive to reproduce? Or is there a supreme strength in the dependency of all living things? Creatures working together towards a common goal accomplishes "more" (on a scale...define your scale), but then when on its own, the individual is weak. In the end, are we all alone?


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Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Old Post Nov-05-2007 20:15 
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Lilith
Meowsies!



Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Maximum Security twilight home for cats

You've got the time to raise it, just adopt a very much 'hands off' approach to the rearing and it should end up being able to fend for itself. Couple of places-
EPA and Wildlife
http://www.wires.org.au/
http://www.fauna-rescue-qld.org.au/

Old Post Nov-05-2007 20:37 
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Omega_M
Nostalgia



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Ether

quote:
Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On


A whole lotta philosophy and no answer to his question. o_0

All species socialize in one way or the other. Fishes stay in schools to protect themselves against predators. The emperor penguins in Antarctica would die if they were not social animals. The higher up you go on the evolutionary ladder, the more complex these social interactions become. Monkeys have a lot more complex social structure than, say birds. We are at the top of this evolutionary ladder and our mechanisms of socializing go well beyond satisfying just the primitive needs. Hence you will not find many examples in nature, of the complex ways in which we socialize with our own species and beyond.


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Originally posted by twilightki : It feels like something you'd listen to at 4 in the morning, or listen to in your car while you're going in a tunnel.

Old Post Nov-05-2007 20:41  India
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Halcyon+On+On
Liebchen



Registered: Sep 2004
Location: midcoast

quote:
Originally posted by Omega_M
A whole lotta philosophy and no answer to his question. o_0


I find it extremely presumptuous to think one could ever have a final solution to this sort of thing. Understanding as many sides of an argument is supremely more important than any particular stance you could ever hold. And yes, I realize that is my opinion.


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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Old Post Nov-05-2007 20:48 
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RJT
last minute disco



Registered: Oct 2004
Location:

He's an engineer, that's just how those fellows think.

My response to your dilemma would be to say that since you've already established a management ethic by feeding the birds, there is no real consistency issue with your deciding to "rescue" the bird; that is, it's consistent with your interaction to this point. In fact, under such an ethical mindset one may even feel that to be the objectively virtuous course of action.

Now, whether or not you have an issue with management ethics might be another topic altogether, and in most situations like this my brain and my gut are on completely different wavelengths with how to respond.

My gut says do what you can to save the little guy, my brain says that maybe we aren't meant to have such a hand in nature.

And in this case, I'm pretty sure it's my gut that's right (at least as far as my ethics are concerned).


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Old Post Nov-05-2007 20:53 
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Omega_M
Nostalgia



Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Ether

But in this case he has to make a decision. ..anything that would help him make one would be much appreciated.


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Originally posted by twilightki : It feels like something you'd listen to at 4 in the morning, or listen to in your car while you're going in a tunnel.

Old Post Nov-05-2007 20:55  India
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RJT
last minute disco



Registered: Oct 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Omega_M
But in this case he has to make a decision. ..anything that would help him make one would be much appreciated.


Everything in here might. Your calculator, however, most certainly would not.


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Old Post Nov-05-2007 20:55 
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