Nevermind, I'm wasting my breath, the idea of "loyalty to ones counntry" is too deeply imbeded and drilled in to most peoples' head all over the world. It doesn't mean a fucking thing, it's too bad most people are too fucking weak and/or dumb to see through such ludicrous concepts.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Very valid points indeed.

I'm sorry, but the whole premise underlying it is totally flawed and on a deeper look explicity assumes a complete absense of responsibility, integrity, and courage. I fail to see what's respectable or "honorable" about that.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium I have great respect to all veterans of war. it is morally incorrect to abuse these veterans like those hippies did. Hippies are sometimes dumb, and they ruin the cause of the whole movement in examples like these (no offense to the good hippies on this board) ... In a way this reminds of other similar acts of disrespect for veterans in other countries. No matter how bad the Vietnam War was, for example, the veterans should still be treated with respect and given privileges. Arguments against the war and killings of innocent civilians is a different story, to be blamed on the people who started the wars and on the officials who ordered the crimes - not on veterans.

Bullshit, people share the burden of responsibility too.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium And it should be done separately, on an anniversary date of START OF THE WAR, not in the case of Remembrance Day the day the war ended. Clearly the idiots who didnt clue in on this (teh hippies) did it intentionally to take it out on the veterans. November 11 is remembered for the END of the war, as pkc pointed out, thats finally it was over and peace came - celebration of peace. It wasnt us who started that war anyway. And if we didnt interfere, Canadians would probably be speaking Japanese or German, as pkc pointed out. Also, compared to other wars of the century, very few civilians and women/children died in WW1. There's too much disrespect, lack of knowledge and understanding out there of history. I blame it on the schools and the system. The new generation of young people, for much part, are very dumb. I just came out of high school, I saw it myself.

So now we're shifting all blame on to the school system huh? Don't forget the major financers of Hitler and the nazi party brining them to power, the Zionist filth known as the Warburgs. Isn't it a strange coincidence that Zionism had virtually no support and after the slaughtering and persectuion of the Jews (amongst MANY others), there was a sudden change in heart? What did WW2 give US? The UN and Israel, and they're both just fucking fantastic as we all know.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z In the information age, people have no excuse for being ignorant or lazy. If you join the army becuase you think you're serving "your country," I'm sorry, you're stupid. Anyone who bothers putting a little thought in to what the term "country" means and then applying that to the phrase "serving your country" can immediately see what a load of horseshit that concept is. The context of my rant is specifically cruitial to the modern age and the recent political climate. I'm not a cold bastard you know. I'm just sick of this "support the troops" bullshit. Some of you actually are disturbed by how people are being sacrificed for all this bullshit, most people aren't. Actions and/or inactions reflect true intentions and feeling, I don't see to many fucking people forming any real opposition, just a bunch of fake spineless sobbing and an enourmous display of complacency, fear, ignorance, and obedience to power. I'm digressing, but the point is, put bluntly "shut the fuck up about 'the troops' already you docile fucking sheep and chickenhaks." And no, I'm not even slightly apologetic about that statement. If any of these assholes cared in the slightest about the troops, the least they would do is be firm in their oppostion to war policy. Ofcourse, it's still possible to have some level of empathy, but all it says is that you're a weak pathetic spineless peice of shit. And if anyone truly does care about 'the troops,' stop the goverment from sending them off to their death in the first place! Yup, that's what the military is for. Brainwashing you to follow orders and take another human life with a minimal sense of remorse while simultaneously having a delusional sense of serving some greater good. No, I'm not saying it doesn't mean anything whatsoever, it just doesn't to most of these clowns who've never experienced that loss nor do they have the slightest fucking clue how it affects a loved one. But if the so called "loved ones" are in denial about why their son/brother/sister/mother/friend died, fuck their dishonest ass. I have termendous respect for people like Cindy Sheehan, and I don't give a shit what all these other balless selfcontiouse clows say about her or people like her. Dude, don't take this the wrong way. You're cool in my books. None of that is personaly directed at you and nor do I think it applies to you. I'm just sick to death of all this blatantly dishonest bullshit and "feel good" crap way too many people are knee deep in. They don't give a fuck about anyone or anything but themsleves and their immediate surronding, their materialistic shallow lives, and feeling better about their pathetic little selves. Hence all this disingenuos illogical utter bullshit about "remembering" or "supporting" the troops, and the false fucking causes they "sacrifice their lives for." At some level there is some truth in their own admissions though, you know, the whole "well, they're doing it so I don't have too." Nothing could be more cowardly and pathetic than that. It's essentially saying "I don't have the balls to stand up for you or myself against the state or our corporate masters, so thanks for dying instead of me!" Fucking pussies. All these shallow fucks have to loose is their cute little suburban lives, toys, and "stuff." The least they can is shut the fuck up and stop being so fucking dishonest.

Your point has been made. I just don't see it that way.

Maybe it's because both sides of my family have had service members since the Korean War til the present. Dad is a colonel in the Army, so I have a little admiration of the military. I'm one to believe in country, and clan. In this world, sometimes the only thing you've got is family, and I think family goes all the way up to your nation. Language, cultural identity, leadership. It's more than a set of laws setting a boundary and behavior. I see it as a sophisticated tribe. Other nations too. I guess you can call me a nationalist, but yea, I believe in country, and when, as you said, there is a justifiable cause, "fighting for country" is a slogan to rally the populace for war.

___________________

Sorry, but serving your country is most definitely NOT stupid.

And for your information there shaolin_Z, Canadians were NEVER conscripted (minus one time in 1917), they all volunteered.
And this includes WWII.

You talk about being lazy and ignorant, trying doing some research next time before talking a country's military's history you no nothing about....

Don't blame the individual; that's just lame.
One can still support the troops and not necessarily enjoy the politics involved, that's the nature of the military.
Everyone signs up KNOWING they'll be called to do something shaolin_Z; it's not a free ride.
You'd have to be a total idiot to think otherwise.

/rant

Myself?

I visited my WWII veteran friend, Ches, who did the tour in Europe all the way to Germany. He was an engineer (welder) who worked on all the trucks/jeeps/etc.

I find it appalling that kids these days have no sense of what Remembrance Day is or why it is celebrated.

The other day, a black high-school girl, who was with her friend on the rush hour subway, noticed I was wearing a poppy. In her vein attempt to embarrass me, she asks from across the car, if I knew why I was wearing it.
I turned, smiled, and answered, "Yes. Do you?"
She instantly blushes and answers meekly, "Isn't it for some people who died in the past or something like that?"
I say, "Close enough", although obviously now quite aware her ignorance was now apparent to the whole car...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r The other day, a black high-school girl, who was with her friend on the rush hour subway, noticed I was wearing a poppy. In her vein attempt to embarrass me, she asks from across the car, if I knew why I was wearing it.

You were wearing opium? What's a poppy?

___________________

I remember an American History course I once took where we covered World War II. Our teacher related a story to us about her Grandfather who had died in the war. He had been a sort of field survey scout who plotted coordinates or whatnot all by himself and tracked enemy movements - told people where to bomb, etc. Pretty scary job. One day, he had been camped out in an abandoned farmhouse when several German soldiers entered and decided to camp out in the floor below him, ignorant to his presence. When he was to make his next radio report to command, he told them to bomb his coordinates, knowing that he, himself, would die, but he would take this troupe of enemies with him. I guess some would call this a "sacrifice", a "heroic deed", or perhaps even "God's work" if they are so short of alternate terms of thought and speech.

I can't help but feel a slight disgust towards it, though. Is this bravery? Does it really take courage to kill yourself and kill others with you? It takes a whole lot of something. Maybe spite. Maybe indoctrinated hatred and a self-righteous sense of duty. I'm not quite convinced it's bravery. In fact, it may just be the opposite. The man obviously had children. What does it take to leave your kids fatherless but for the sole purpose of killing some strangers who wear a different uniform than yourself?

Am I saying that soldiers deserve to be picketed and spit upon and have used tampons thrrown at them by protesting by-standers? No. Do some of them deserve it? Quite possibly. But I am quite uneasy with collectively judging enlisted men and women who are just there for the money, the experience, the tradeskills. Don't make it out as more than it is. If you have been in the US military within the last 20 years, you are only supporting warmongering profiteers who make huge money off of providing and supporting arms used against what are mostly 3rd world countries and peoples. But the spite and the hatred should be directed more at those politicians who issue death warrants; those uncaring capitalists and corrupt figureheads who don't bat an eye at bombing hospitals and sending men and women to their doom all in the name of "Jesus", "Freedom", "Democracy" or the almighty "Self Defense and the security of Peace".

Do veterans deserve rememberance? Very much so. Does anything in this world deserve a national holiday where many things shut down, there are parades in the streets, rioting hippies and sad old men in Uniforms, marching around as though the period from which they are trying to remember was a happy one? No. I disagree with that. If people really want to "honour" the dead, they would read up on what happened and observe what this has on our current state of being. Because I'm not even the slightest bit convinced that those who have died in past conflicts would want to see the cycle of death and war that this world seems unable to extricate itself from. I mean, really, their death accomplished nothing. If anything, the state of the world has gotten far worse. Is that what they would want? That doesn't sound like honouring the memory of anyone to me.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Sorry, but serving your country is most definitely NOT stupid.

Define country. And I'll show you just how stupid and shallow an idea it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r And for your information there shaolin_Z, Canadians were NEVER conscripted (minus one time in 1917), they all volunteered. And this includes WWII.

Hmmm... and I claimed they were? Nope, don't remember doing that.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r You talk about being lazy and ignorant, trying doing some research next time before talking a country's military's history you no nothing about....

Maybe you should try paying more attention to what I wrote. I was refering to "a country," and abstract concept and universally applying it, not a "specific country" thank you very much.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Don't blame the individual; that's just lame. One can still support the troops and not necessarily enjoy the politics involved, that's the nature of the military.

No you can't. The word looses all meaning. You're not supporting their cause to begin with. Secondly, you're not sending them money, weapons, food/rations, mediacal supplies, comepsation for disablities/handicaps, or any REAL TANGIBLE SUPPORT helping them or the cause they're fighting for in any way, and certainly aren't going out on the battlefeild with them. How exactly are you supporting them? A theatrical display of mourning is not support.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Everyone signs up KNOWING they'll be called to do something shaolin_Z; it's not a free ride. You'd have to be a total idiot to think otherwise. /rant

That's exactly my point. They're responsible for contemplating what that "something" is before the decide to sign up... not an unreasonable expectation.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Myself? I visited my WWII veteran friend, Ches, who did the tour in Europe all the way to Germany. He was an engineer (welder) who worked on all the trucks/jeeps/etc. I find it appalling that kids these days have no sense of what Remembrance Day is or why it is celebrated. The other day, a black high-school girl, who was with her friend on the rush hour subway, noticed I was wearing a poppy. In her vein attempt to embarrass me, she asks from across the car, if I knew why I was wearing it. I turned, smiled, and answered, "Yes. Do you?" She instantly blushes and answers meekly, "Isn't it for some people who died in the past or something like that?" I say, "Close enough", although obviously now quite aware her ignorance was now apparent to the whole car...

Ok. And?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I remember an American History course I once took where we covered World War II. Our teacher related a story to us about her Grandfather who had died in the war. He had been a sort of field survey scout who plotted coordinates or whatnot all by himself and tracked enemy movements - told people where to bomb, etc. Pretty scary job. One day, he had been camped out in an abandoned farmhouse when several German soldiers entered and decided to camp out in the floor below him, ignorant to his presence. When he was to make his next radio report to command, he told them to bomb his coordinates, knowing that he, himself, would die, but he would take this troupe of enemies with him. I guess some would call this a "sacrifice", a "heroic deed", or perhaps even "God's work" if they are so short of alternate terms of thought and speech. I can't help but feel a slight disgust towards it, though. Is this bravery? Does it really take courage to kill yourself and kill others with you? It takes a whole lot of something. Maybe spite. Maybe indoctrinated hatred and a self-righteous sense of duty. I'm not quite convinced it's bravery. In fact, it may just be the opposite. The man obviously had children. What does it take to leave your kids fatherless but for the sole purpose of killing some strangers who wear a different uniform than yourself? Am I saying that soldiers deserve to be picketed and spit upon and have used tampons thrrown at them by protesting by-standers? No. Do some of them deserve it? Quite possibly. But I am quite uneasy with collectively judging enlisted men and women who are just there for the money, the experience, the tradeskills. Don't make it out as more than it is. If you have been in the US military within the last 20 years, you are only supporting warmongering profiteers who make huge money off of providing and supporting arms used against what are mostly 3rd world countries and peoples. But the spite and the hatred should be directed more at those politicians who issue death warrants; those uncaring capitalists and corrupt figureheads who don't bat an eye at bombing hospitals and sending men and women to their doom all in the name of "Jesus", "Freedom", "Democracy" or the almighty "Self Defense and the security of Peace". Do veterans deserve rememberance? Very much so. Does anything in this world deserve a national holiday where many things shut down, there are parades in the streets, rioting hippies and sad old men in Uniforms, marching around as though the period from which they are trying to remember was a happy one? No. I disagree with that. If people really want to "honour" the dead, they would read up on what happened and observe what this has on our current state of being. Because I'm not even the slightest bit convinced that those who have died in past conflicts would want to see the cycle of death and war that this world seems unable to extricate itself from. I mean, really, their death accomplished nothing. If anything, the state of the world has gotten far worse. Is that what they would want? That doesn't sound like honouring the memory of anyone to me.

Excellent post.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Your point has been made. I just don't see it that way. Maybe it's because both sides of my family have had service members since the Korean War til the present. Dad is a colonel in the Army, so I have a little admiration of the military. I'm one to believe in country, and clan. In this world, sometimes the only thing you've got is family, and I think family goes all the way up to your nation. Language, cultural identity, leadership. It's more than a set of laws setting a boundary and behavior. I see it as a sophisticated tribe. Other nations too. I guess you can call me a nationalist, but yea, I believe in country, and when, as you said, there is a justifiable cause, "fighting for country" is a slogan to rally the populace for war.

Good, you're honest, and I respect that. And we agree to disagree. I don't see the country as an extension of the familt though. If it is, it's a very dysfunctional one .

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Define country. And I'll show you just how stupid and shallow an idea it is.

See below

quote:

Hmmm... and I claimed they were? Nope, don't remember doing that.

You do know that colonelcrisp is Canadian right?
Hence my comments...

quote:

No you can't. The word looses all meaning. You're not supporting their cause to begin with.

Uh, yea, I am.
Canadians are in an entirely different boat than your fuckin' mess...

quote:

Secondly, you're not sending them money, weapons, food/rations, mediacal supplies, comepsation for disablities/handicaps, or any REAL TANGIBLE SUPPORT helping them or the cause they're fighting for in any way, and certainly aren't going out on the battlefeild with them. How exactly are you supporting them? A theatrical display of mourning is not support.

Again, you're lost; it's called TAXES.
Who do you think is paying them??
Just because I'm not 'out there' or 'in the shit' with them doesn't mean I don't support them...

quote:

That's exactly my point. They're responsible for contemplating what that "something" is before the decide to sign up... not an unreasonable expectation.

Unless you're fuckin' omnipotent you can't possibly expect someone to sign up based on the crisis du jour (there's no multiple choice option sorry!)
There's enough data out there for even for the most dim witted to understand what the potential possibilities are before they even put ink to paper...
If someone is going to balk when asked to actually do some work, then they obviously made the wrong choice and should go home and cry to momma...

quote:

Ok. And?

That story wasn't for you. So?

You're obviously lost on this whole subject so I suggest talking to a vet and show some respect where respect is due.
If you can't figure out why someone would lay their life on the line for people like yourself to have the freedom to complain about others 'faking respect' then this is obviously beyond your comprehension.
I feel sorry for you actually.

As for your 'country' dilemma, read some history or something.
Every 'country's' history is different, how they were formed, different and unique.
Their people, different.
My reason for loving Canada is a lot different then someone who may love their country of USA.
Would I defend her if needed? Absolutely.
Why? Because I believe it's worth defending both for myself and others that share in it.
I'm not of the mindset of the egotistical, it's all about me generation thats springing from the gutters these days. Consumerist, gang bangin', no respect hoodlums who wouldn't know a days work if it hit them on the head freeloaders - I would defend them.
Why?
I understand that there is a history of people to preserve and yet unborn families that deserve the freedom I currently enjoy.
A country is about it's people, not the borders.
If that's so perplexing, get off the internet and go on a trip in your own country.

Forget about the politics, the face in office is irrelevant.
Nobody ever serves in a time of war because their country wants them to, they serve because of what they want to defend.
(Conscription not withstanding of course)

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Oh, the nobility.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.