1. Show me a positive test.

2. Who cares? IF he did take them, he's not the first athlete in the history of sports to do so. I'm glad our government is wasting FOUR YEARS of taxpayer's dollars to try and get an asterisk next to his home run record. Whoever is perusing this should have an asterisk put next to his career and fired.

Time to move on people.

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Originally posted by zizack I don't watch baseball at all, but I have mixed feelings about the whole steroid debate. One part of me says fuck it, juice up guys, max your body to its fullest potential and lets see what you can do. In Japan, they allow their mixed martial artists to take steroids, and I am in awe about what these guys' potentials are as humans. Take them off the roids and they aren't as dominant, but damn, as far as the spectacle goes, its amazing to watch. on the other hand, they are obviously dangerous, and I think it is kind of unfair to the athlets of the past who set historic records without the juice.

i wouldn't say that you have potential if it is only unlocked by using juice. that's like saying your BODY has the potential to stop bullets by putting on a bullet proof vest. Not really, it's the kevlar that has the potential.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 i wouldn't say that you have potential if it is only unlocked by using juice. that's like saying your BODY has the potential to stop bullets by putting on a bullet proof vest. Not really, it's the kevlar that has the potential.

not the best analogy. Everything an athlete puts into their body either helps / hurts their performance. There has been some recent controversey in MMA because fighters have been getting their wins taken away after testing positive for marijuana. My first thought is 'wtf' But ask one of those fighters why they smoke, they will say it calms them, keeps them in a good state of mind...so in reality, it IS a performance enhancing drug.

and I'm not talking about useless individuals who after using steroids become super human...we're talking about amazing athletes to begin with, but with the help of steroids can achieve a lot more.

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Originally posted by zizack not the best analogy. Everything an athlete puts into their body either helps / hurts their performance. There has been some recent controversey in MMA because fighters have been getting their wins taken away after testing positive for marijuana. My first thought is 'wtf' But ask one of those fighters why they smoke, they will say it calms them, keeps them in a good state of mind...so in reality, it IS a performance enhancing drug. and I'm not talking about useless individuals who after using steroids become super human...we're talking about amazing athletes to begin with, but with the help of steroids can achieve a lot more.

you're right, it wasn't the best analogy, but it's the best i could think of this late. but you get the point. the very fact that you have to inject something into the body means that your body CAN NOT do what you strive to achieve.

I don't agree that potential should be measured by the additions made by artificial means. If you cheat on a test (let's say by sneaking in a cheat sheet) and get an A which you were otherwise incapable of obtaining, you really don't have the potential to get an A, just the potential to cheat and get an A. I hope you can see that distinction.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 you're right, it wasn't the best analogy, but it's the best i could think of this late. but you get the point. the very fact that you have to inject something into the body means that your body CAN NOT do what you strive to achieve. I don't agree that potential should be measured by the additions made by artificial means. If you cheat on a test (let's say by sneaking in a cheat sheet) and get an A which you were otherwise incapable of obtaining, you really don't have the potential to get an A, just the potential to cheat and get an A. I hope you can see that distinction.

yeah, but both your analogies involve using an additional object of assistance, a kevlar vest, and a cheat sheet. Steroids are injected to the body, and become part of the person's chemistry.

In boxing for example, fighters cut massive amounts of weight and dehydrate themselves to an extreme degree to weigh in as low as possible and be the most competetive. Usually after weighing in, they get injected with an IV to re hydrate...is that cheating? what about athletes with diabetes who need injections...should they be banned from competing because they require an injection to strive to achieve performance? extreme example, but whats the difference really?

In the end, people's potentials are increased every day by artificial means...drinking Coke, energy drinks, drinking coffee, taking sleeping pills to get a good nights rest, taking viagra to get a hard on, what have you. whats the difference between all that stuff and taking steroids?

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Originally posted by zizack yeah, but both your analogies involve using an additional object of assistance, a kevlar vest, and a cheat sheet. Steroids are injected to the body, and become part of the person's chemistry.

but just like steriod temporarily become part of your chemistry, the information on a cheat sheet temporarily become part of your knowledge base. I don't see that much of a difference. You internalize both things.

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Originally posted by zizack In boxing for example, fighters cut massive amounts of weight and dehydrate themselves to an extreme degree to weigh in as low as possible and be the most competetive. Usually after weighing in, they get injected with an IV to re hydrate...is that cheating? what about athletes with diabetes who need injections...should they be banned from competing because they require an injection to strive to achieve performance? extreme example, but whats the difference really? In the end, people's potentials are increased every day by artificial means...drinking Coke, energy drinks, drinking coffee, taking sleeping pills to get a good nights rest, taking viagra to get a hard on, what have you. whats the difference between all that stuff and taking steroids?

good points, but we should strive to minimize those artificial enhancements. When those enhancements aren't vital to the health of the athlete, they should not be permitted. In the case of a diabetic, it is necessary for the health of the person. Coke and other caffeine products provide such minimal enhancements to the user that enforcing a ban would be more burdensome than any benefit from a ban. Steroids however, provide such a distinct advantage to the user that it is unfair to allow it, and the benefit of banning the substance outweigh the burden. With this, just like anything else, you have to weigh the benefits versus the burdens.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 Steroids however, provide such a distinct advantage to the user that it is unfair to allow it.

but if everyone could legally use performance enhancing substances, it WOULD be fair...everyone would legally have access to them.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 but just like steriod temporarily become part of your chemistry, the information on a cheat sheet temporarily become part of your knowledge base. I don't see that much of a difference. You internalize both things.

haha, you're reaching with that one. Using a cheat sheet means physically bringing an external object into a test with you. You can accurately compare a classroom to a boxing ring with htis analogy...as soon as you walk in the classroom with an external object (cheat sheet), you are cheating. Walking into a boxing ring with steroids in your system is very different.

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Originally posted by zizack but if everyone could legally use performance enhancing substances, it WOULD be fair...everyone would legally have access to them.

come on bro, you seem far smarter than that. There are far too many negative side effects from steroid use to promote its widespread use. (and yes, legalizing it to even the playing field IS promoting its use) I won't even begin to list those effects because i'm sure you are aware of those effects.

A much easier way to make the playing field level is to not let people do it. It's the right policy because it doesn't jeopardize the health of young people.

I already know your response, "but you can't stop people, so giving them the choice is the fairest way." Well, sometimes you have to take a stand and promote what is right. It's that simple.

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Originally posted by zizack haha, you're reaching with that one. Using a cheat sheet means physically bringing an external object into a test with you. You can accurately compare a classroom to a boxing ring with htis analogy...as soon as you walk in the classroom with an external object (cheat sheet), you are cheating. Walking into a boxing ring with steroids in your system is very different.

you're missing the point here. You can't inject anything into your brain that will increase knowledge, except information. Therefore, a cheat sheet is the equivalent of the needle you use to inject the juice into the body.

Instead of saying that taking juice is different, explain that to me. I can't see the difference, and i don't agree.

Oh, and i wasn't comparing a classroom with a boxing ring, just the methods of cheating.