Fuck..The US average of construction deaths per year is 5700 as opposed to 69 deaths per year in the UK...Don't forget that even though the US is a much larger country it still only has 3 times the population...

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quote:

Originally posted by danlaxx1 I'm proud to be a part of a union. And yes, I am sensitive. This union has done so much for my family over the years. My father, uncle, and mother's step-father worked damn hard to be able to support their families.

....which precludes an objective opinion. There is nothing i would love to hear more than someone working in the union criticize a union for the effect it has on the economy. Unions are single handedly destroying the US auto industry.

of course unions aren't going to say they want to reduce productivity, but reducing productivity is the consequence of all they fight for. Two simple examples: time allocated required breaks, and overtime pay. Breaks kill productivity because you are still being paid although you don't work. Overtime pay is even worse because you do the same (or more likely less) work for a higher price. If you are working a 45th hour in the week, there is no way you are more productive than on your tenth hour. Normal service industry jobs don't get overtime pay, we do what we have to do to get the job done, and we don't bitch about not getting overtime.

quote:

Originally posted by steven-neil Fuck..The US average of construction deaths per year is 5700 as opposed to 69 deaths per year in the UK...Don't forget that even though the US is a much larger country it still only has 3 times the population...

source for the UK statistics??

That 5700 figure is the total US occupational deaths. The actual figure for construction deaths in 2006 was 1,226. here's an except from the bureau of labor statistics:

quote:

Construction accounted for 1,226 fatal work injuries, the most of any industry sector. The total for construction represented an increase of 3 percent over the 2005 total. Fatalities among specialty trade contractors rose 6 percent (from 677 fatalities in 2005 to 721 in 2006), due primarily to higher numbers of fatal work injuries among building finishing contractors and roofing contractors. Fatalities in building construction and in heavy and civil engineering construction decreased in 2006.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm

i found an article saying the UK had 241 occupational deaths last year, 31% being construction related (74 construction deaths). That's a huge difference in proportions. I am willing to bet some of that difference is based on what constitutes occupational death in the US.

http://www.occupationalhazards.com/News/Article/69858/UK_Workplace_Fatality_Rates_Rising.aspx

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Dec-16-2007 at 01:15

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 ....which precludes an objective opinion. There is nothing i would love to hear more than someone working in the union criticize a union for the effect it has on the economy. Unions are single handedly destroying the US auto industry. of course unions aren't going to say they want to reduce productivity, but reducing productivity is the consequence of all they fight for. Two simple examples: time allocated required breaks, and overtime pay. Breaks kill productivity because you are still being paid although you don't work. Overtime pay is even worse because you do the same (or more likely less) work for a higher price. If you are working a 45th hour in the week, there is no way you are more productive than on your tenth hour. Normal service industry jobs don't get overtime pay, we do what we have to do to get the job done, and we don't bitch about not getting overtime.

i guess you've never seen the repeated studies that have shown NAPS increase productivity and loyalty. many offices are installing corporate naprooms because it's proven to get better work out of employees. unions arent asking for that much, but just protecting workers from draconian definitions of "productivity" that equate a monkey in constant motion with a dedicated and fully functioning employee.

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iamcharlie

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 source for the UK statistics?? That 5700 figure is the total US occupational deaths. The actual figure for construction deaths in 2006 was 1,226. here's an except from the bureau of labor statistics: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm i found an article saying the UK had 241 occupational deaths last year, 31% being construction related (74 construction deaths). That's a huge difference in proportions. I am willing to bet some of that difference is based on what constitutes occupational death in the US. http://www.occupationalhazards.com/...tes_Rising.aspx

Health and Safety Executive UK..

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quote:

Originally posted by zachias31 i guess you've never seen the repeated studies that have shown NAPS increase productivity and loyalty. many offices are installing corporate naprooms because it's proven to get better work out of employees. unions arent asking for that much, but just protecting workers from draconian definitions of "productivity" that equate a monkey in constant motion with a dedicated and fully functioning employee.

i don't disagree that breaks help overall productivity, and yes i have seen those reports. However, mandating when and how long a break should be institutionalizes a feeling of entitlement to not work during certain periods. If a union worker has a set break at 11:00am, and something needed to be done over that period, i'm more than willing to bet the break would occur regardless. That kind of conduct does not help productivity because once you put something down it takes time to become re-acclimated with the job, thus reducing productivity. Breaks should be taken when there is downtime, not when they have break-time. That is a major difference between people who make $$$$ and people who want to make $$$$.


Some of my last post was poorly phrased. i would change how i said breaks kill productivity to be consistent with what i said above in this post.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Dec-16-2007 at 01:45

quote:

Originally posted by steven-neil Health and Safety Executive UK..

that's a great statistic. i wish i knew why such a great disparity.

I don't know what disparity means...

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quote:

Originally posted by steven-neil I don't know what disparity means...

www.m-w.com

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 i don't disagree that breaks help overall productivity, and yes i have seen those reports. However, mandating when and how long a break should be institutionalizes a feeling of entitlement to not work during certain periods. If a union worker has a set break at 11:00am, and something needed to be done over that period, i'm more than willing to bet the break would occur regardless. That kind of conduct does not help productivity because once you put something down it takes time to become re-acclimated with the job, thus reducing productivity. Breaks should be taken when there is downtime, not when they have break-time. That is a major difference between people who make $$$$ and people who want to make $$$$.

Though I agree that a prescribed break at an inopportune time can cause issues, there are PLENTY of jobs where if a break isn't mandated, you're not gonna get it. Maybe you've never done 12 hour shifts as a cook or a waiter or some other job where you're really seen as a cog and not given a whole lot of respect? Labor laws and unions may not be perfect, but they're there to prevent abuse by bosses and corporations.

And regarding your comment about overtime, i'm sure you'd back a plan to hire more employees, pay for their health care, etc., to ensure that overtime ane its attendent high cost/low productivity ratio are no longer an issue...

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iamcharlie

quote:

Originally posted by zachias31 Though I agree that a prescribed break at an inopportune time can cause issues, there are PLENTY of jobs where if a break isn't mandated, you're not gonna get it. Maybe you've never done 12 hour shifts as a cook or a waiter or some other job where you're really seen as a cog and not given a whole lot of respect? Labor laws and unions may not be perfect, but they're there to prevent abuse by bosses and corporations. And regarding your comment about overtime, i'm sure you'd back a plan to hire more employees, pay for their health care, etc., to ensure that overtime ane its attendent high cost/low productivity ratio are no longer an issue...

i worked as a waiter for 5 years and i never once had a period of time allocated for a break, despite working open-close shifts. Breaks were taken when there was time.

As for protection against abuses, i certainly understand that function; however, i don't think that is so much the case anymore. Today, it seems the main function of a union is to perpetuate employment of union workers regardless of their workplace performance. There are many non-union jobs in manufacturing and construction, that pay comparable (if not more) money. Generally, those jobs are given to hard working good performers. If those workers don't perform they are at risk of being easily fired. The main benefit of being in a union is that you can NOT be easily fired. Thus, a disincentive to work hard.

Unions are a fossil the manufacturing age when employers simply disregarded the few worker protection laws that existed. Today, there is a huge body of worker protection laws, so the concern that an employer is going to deny rights to a worker just aren't as great. There are many avenues for workers to seek redress for abuses.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Dec-16-2007 at 02:20

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 www.m-w.com

OK..The difference is in the Uk is that if you violate a Health and Safety code you will be fired immediately without warning with no union to back you up...We find our own work and dont need or want a Union to do it for us..We get cash awards for being health and safety conscious..The government reward major contractors with big cash bonuses dependant on Health and Safety standards...

In the UK we have to validate our trades before stepping foot onto a building site..We have to prove we can do the work to a safe and high standard..Each and every one of us has to be insured for public liability and we have to pass a construction industry certificate...Before each job we have to do a safety induction course and pass a basic first aid course...

+ we've been building stuff for 2000 years and we're better....

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