quote:

Originally posted by tathi i wonder when Israel realise collectively punishing an entire poppulation does not work? poverty breeds extremism

Umm, Israel DOES realize that, she did so ages ago, which is why it continues to deliberately perpetuate further misery as an excuse to annex more land and herd the Palestinians even more so.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how are you meant to engage in dialogue with a party that refuses to acknowledge israel's right to exist or prevent rocket attacks on israeli towns? when things dont go their way they always resort to violence, just ask their fellow palestinians aligned with fatah. israel gets to do whatever the fuck she wants because hamas are not interested in a two state solution. israel's crimes against palestinians are a disgrace, and hamas just cant accept that (rightly or wrongly) they've lost. but hey! keep fighting the moral fight whilst your people suffer

Israel doesn't have a "right" to exist... the fact that it does it repulsive and unfortunate. Unless you have a fairly distorted sense of morality/ethics, genocidal bloodshed, pillage and plunder don't entitle you to jack shit... which is more honest terminology for "annexation," "displacement," and "collective punishment."

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

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Originally posted by George Smiley I'm sorry but there is no difference whatsoever between the actions of Hamas (and everyone else) or Israel. Israel has acted aggressively, first, on many many occasions and continues to do so. The West Bank is a tinder box waiting to explode because Israel continues to build new settlements and has shown no desire whatsoever to dismantle the many settlements already built in the West Bank (as they have in the undesirable Gaza Strip)

oh, i didn't mean to say i think israel is blameless or different from hamas, just that israel achieves more by their violence than the palestinians do (more later).

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Originally posted by George Smiley I would agree but I disagree that the onus should be solely on Hamas - Israel causes as much trouble as Hamas and therefore the onus should equally be on the two.

well, how are you meant to share the onus when once elected hamas refused to acknowledge israel? even if israel came to the table, what do hamas have to give them? "well, we do not acknowledge your right to exist, but how about we stop rocket attacks on the sabbath, is that good for you?" israel have everything to give/offer, but they need something in return. i dont know how anyone can expect israel to cease the occupation as long as hamas threatens their citizens.

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Originally posted by George Smiley And Israel continues to build settlements so who's in the right exactly?

yeah, you won't find any disagreement from me there. that's fvcked and the international community should be doing more. that said, when israel DID abandon settlements, and had various troop withdrawals, what did hamas give in return? the withdrawal only allowed hamas to move their mortars closer to israel.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Perhaps that isn't their imidiate aim? Perhaps they just want to be left alone in territory that is rightfully theirs (ie the occupied territories). Israel evacuated Gaza of settlements but that's all. Don't kid yourself they gave Gaza "independence" because they didn't. Gaza is nothing more than a prison and serves only to fuel hatred meaning there are more than enough people out for revenge.

true. that said, hamas give israel every reason to continue said occupation.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Is it Hamas who will not negotiate? As far as I can see it is Israel, America and the EU who have categorically stated they will not negotiate with Hamas...

and this refusal came after hamas was elected and said they would not cease violence nor recognise israel. again, what exactly is there to negotiate with? what else do hamas have to offer?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well they forced out an unpopular Fatah commander from Gaza to restablish their elected responsibility of maintaining security for Gaza (it is also the responsibility of Hamas to provide security for the West Bank, but Israel and America bypassed that little aspect of democcracy when they declared the elections void and provided funds anf military support to the PA to provide security for the occupied territories). Also, Hamas' social policies are reletively sound - the reason they were elected in the first place.

yes, they vowed to stop the fatah corruption, but has that happened? in any case, that is largely irrelevant when (to me) the larger issue is some kind of cease-fire (in the short term) with israel. they only declared the elections void because of hamas' refusal to renounce violence. in my opinion hamas had a HUGE opportunity when they were elected, but they wasted it by not evolving their modus operandi.

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Originally posted by George Smiley What are their aims? Not sure. One thing I do know is that they are not a unique terrorist group and evolve like any others. Right now, officially, their aim is to retake Israel. But then that was the aim of the PLO until Oslo where Palestinians thought there was a genuine hope for peace. Israel destroyed that hope with their refusal to enter into final status negotiations after Oslo and the Palestinians are no longer naive enough to believe Israel will do now.

but what do they have to lose by peaceful negotiations? they can always walk out and start rocket and sniper attacks again. what we DO know is nothing is going to change while theybomb israeli towns.

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Originally posted by George Smiley However, as I said, Hamas are just like any other group. If Israel showed a willingness to excersise constraint and a willingness to dismantle the West Bank settlements, I don't see why Hamas cannot be brought round to the idea of a two-state solution (indeed I believe Hamas moderates were on the verge of declaring such in a deal with Hamas last year when the process was hijacked by the more extreme branch when they kidnapped the soldier and held him hostage in Gaza knowing full well that Israel would not be able to show any constraint and begin their programme of collective punishment - so Israel and the extremists got what they wanted - no peace)

like i said, the dismantling of settlements wasn't "rewarded" by hamas. even if hamas were 100% morally and ethically correct in their war, they need to give israel something in return.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Same question to you, but the flip side. What do you think Israel's goals are for the resolution for the conflict? What has Israel achieved during this long running conflict?

that's a slightly altered question - hamas don't have any goals for resolving, and neither does israel. but israel doesn't have to. they gain from the occupation- they make it harder to fire rockets into israel. as long as rocket attacks continue, they have something to gain by moving tanks into gaza. its hamas and the palestinians that are obviously losing the most out of the conflict, they should abandon their quest for israel's demise and bring a little pragmatism to the table. in my opinion israel's position IS pragmatic - yes, the occupation breeds hatred and violence, but since israel has never been rewarded for restraint, they have nothing to lose.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Israel doesn't have a "right" to exist... the fact that it does it repulsive and unfortunate. Unless you have a fairly distorted sense of morality/ethics, genocidal bloodshed, pillage and plunder don't entitle you to jack shit... which is more honest terminology for "annexation," "displacement," and "collective punishment."

we've had this discussion before. even if i conceded that israel doesn't have a right to exist, the shitty reality is that guerilla warfare and random rocket attacks are not moving the mighty israeli military ANYWHERE. how many lines on the world map have been drawn up and settled by "honourable" or "just" conflicts? not many. the palestinians have lost the conflict. they can't win. ever. all they're doing by perpetuating the struggle is persecuting their people by proxy.

how many palestinians would still be alive had some kind of two state solution been agreed to 60 years ago? how more prosperous would the palestinians be if they were spending money on houses and schools and hospitals instead of mortars and assault rifles?

i know its a bitter pill to swallow, but fighting "the good and just war" that cannot EVER be won doesn't make any sense to me

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I don't see how firing rockets at Israel is going to help the problem. On the other hand, I don't see how an Israeli blockage will stop rocket attacks.

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Palestinians blow up border wall, flood into Egypt By Nidal al-Mughrabi 2 hours, 19 minutes ago RAFAH, Gaza Strip (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of Palestinians poured into Egypt from the Gaza Strip on Wednesday after militants blew up a border wall, and stocked up on food and fuel in short supply because of an Israeli blockade. "Those people are hungry for freedom, for food and for everything," said an Egyptian shopkeeper who gave her name only as Hamida, surveying shelves emptied swiftly by Gazans paying with Egyptian pounds and Israeli shekels. The fall of the Rafah wall punched a new hole in efforts by Israel, under frequent rocket attack from the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, to keep pressure on the territory in the face of an international outcry over shortages and Palestinian hardship. The flood of people into the Egyptian part of Rafah -- some on donkey carts and carrying bags and cases to fill with consumer goods -- also forced Israel into a delicate diplomatic balancing act with its first Arab peace partner. Egypt proposed that it take a new look, with Israel and the Palestinian Authority, at how to reactivate their border agreement, the Foreign Ministry in Cairo said. Residents of Rafah, a divided town straddling the Egypt-Gaza border, said militants set off explosions that demolished a 200-metre (200-yard) length of the rusting, six-meter (20-foot) high metal border wall put up by Israel in 2004, a year before it pulled its troops and settlers from the territory. Locals estimated at least 200,000 people crossed over in a rare opportunity to leave what Gazans call a giant jail.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080123...SsgxeIirkxbbBAF

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh, i didn't mean to say i think israel is blameless or different from hamas, just that israel achieves more by their violence than the palestinians do (more later).

Like what?! Israel's aim is to eliminate the threat of terrorism, yet everything they have done has only increased that threat.

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well, how are you meant to share the onus when once elected hamas refused to acknowledge israel?

But Israel, America and the EU do not recognise Hamas...

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even if israel came to the table, what do hamas have to give them?

Again, look at the PLO at the end of the 80s, no difference whatsoever

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i dont know how anyone can expect israel to cease the occupation as long as hamas threatens their citizens.

Come on man you're more intelligent than this! The occupation is not about providing security for Israel but for providing security for the settlers. The occupation and the settlements, and the conditions that creates for the Palestinians to live in are the main contributors to the security threat against Israel. The occupation goes on because of political pressure by the settler groups, the right wing and hardcore American Zionists. Ending the occupation would increase Israeli security, that's just common sense!

quote:

that said, when israel DID abandon settlements, and had various troop withdrawals, what did hamas give in return? the withdrawal only allowed hamas to move their mortars closer to israel.

Pah! Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was going to do nothing to alleviate the problems and conditions there. Israel simply turned Gaza into a prison. If anything, the conditions got worse because of it. Many Gazans relied on Israel for employment. That has ended and combined with the border closures has led to the economic and humanitarian crisis we have today. Yet you think Gazans should be thankful to Israel for that?!?!

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yes, they vowed to stop the fatah corruption, but has that happened? in any case, that is largely irrelevant when (to me) the larger issue is some kind of cease-fire (in the short term) with israel. they only declared the elections void because of hamas' refusal to renounce violence. in my opinion hamas had a HUGE opportunity when they were elected, but they wasted it by not evolving their modus operandi.

But we have all learned from history, including the Palestinians, that cease-fires only apply to Palestinian militias, not to Israel...

quote:

but what do they have to lose by peaceful negotiations? they can always walk out and start rocket and sniper attacks again. what we DO know is nothing is going to change while theybomb israeli towns.

The Palestinians have twice attempted peace negotiations at Oslo and Camp David. Not once has Israel offered a viable deal that could be accepted by the Palestinians. Israel wants Palestine to be a prison surrounded and dissected by Israeli land...that's what they have to lose

quote:

like i said, the dismantling of settlements wasn't "rewarded" by hamas. even if hamas were 100% morally and ethically correct in their war, they need to give israel something in return.

Such as?

quote:

that's a slightly altered question - hamas don't have any goals for resolving, and neither does israel. but israel doesn't have to. they gain from the occupation- they make it harder to fire rockets into israel. as long as rocket attacks continue, they have something to gain by moving tanks into gaza. its hamas and the palestinians that are obviously losing the most out of the conflict, they should abandon their quest for israel's demise and bring a little pragmatism to the table. in my opinion israel's position IS pragmatic - yes, the occupation breeds hatred and violence, but since israel has never been rewarded for restraint, they have nothing to lose.

IMO the international community should not be rewarding Israel for showing restraint, they should be punishing Israel should it not show restraint.

And seriously, do you honestly think that should Israel withdraw completely from all occupied territories, abandon all settlements and allow for a viable Palestinian state to be created, they would face more or less attacks than they do now?

IMO, the ball is in Israel's court. Hamas help Israel by not recognising it and therefore Israel wins international support. But if Hamas does recognise Israel - then what? We are in the same position that we were in when the PLO recognised Israel and look what that achieved - fuck all. Israel continues the occupation and shows no desire to establish a viable Palestinian state. It will make no difference if Hamas recognises Israel because Israel will continue the occupation and Palestinians lives will be such a misery that another group will simply take their place and continue the fight, and they will enjoy widespread support from ordinary Palestinians.

If Israel wants the attacks to stop, then it must end the occupation, there is no other way...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Like what?! Israel's aim is to eliminate the threat of terrorism, yet everything they have done has only increased that threat.

NOT if hamas' goal is the destruction of the israeli state. until hamas decide that israel is there to stay and cease terrorist activities, i don't see that anything israel does "increases" anything.

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Originally posted by George Smiley But Israel, America and the EU do not recognise Hamas...

because they will not renounce violence. and yes, israel is guilty of this too and the international community should do more about that.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Come on man you're more intelligent than this! The occupation is not about providing security for Israel but for providing security for the settlers. The occupation and the settlements, and the conditions that creates for the Palestinians to live in are the main contributors to the security threat against Israel. The occupation goes on because of political pressure by the settler groups, the right wing and hardcore American Zionists. Ending the occupation would increase Israeli security, that's just common sense!

im not sure that i am george! but point taken. i have never EVER supported the settlements and have always advocated israeli withdrawal. but until hamas renounce violence and agree that israel has a right to exist, im not sure what israel is losing by maintaining the settlements. can you categorically state that the abandoning of all settlements would change hamas' tactics and strategies and goals?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Pah! Israeli withdrawal from Gaza was going to do nothing to alleviate the problems and conditions there. Israel simply turned Gaza into a prison. If anything, the conditions got worse because of it. Many Gazans relied on Israel for employment. That has ended and combined with the border closures has led to the economic and humanitarian crisis we have today. Yet you think Gazans should be thankful to Israel for that?!?!

no, im not saying that should be greatful at all. but hamas, when elected, should have taken this as a first step and perhaps offered something in return. why would israel withdraw more troops, and cease the prison-like conditions if their withdrawal garnered zip?

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Originally posted by George Smiley But we have all learned from history, including the Palestinians, that cease-fires only apply to Palestinian militias, not to Israel...

you wont find me disagreeing with that.

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Originally posted by George Smiley The Palestinians have twice attempted peace negotiations at Oslo and Camp David. Not once has Israel offered a viable deal that could be accepted by the Palestinians. Israel wants Palestine to be a prison surrounded and dissected by Israeli land...that's what they have to lose

was just watching the west wing episodes at camp david. was sad seeing art so much nicer than real life. to be honest im not up on what was on the table at these agreements, so i'll take your word for it.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Such as?

the cessation of terror attacks.

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Originally posted by George Smiley IMO the international community should not be rewarding Israel for showing restraint, they should be punishing Israel should it not show restraint.

agreed.

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Originally posted by George Smiley And seriously, do you honestly think that should Israel withdraw completely from all occupied territories, abandon all settlements and allow for a viable Palestinian state to be created, they would face more or less attacks than they do now?

as long as hamas' avowed goal is the destruction of israel, then yes, i do believe israel will face as many (if not more) attacks. a withdrawal signals to hamas that they are winning, why not continue the struggle to achieve ultimate victory?

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Originally posted by George Smiley IMO, the ball is in Israel's court. Hamas help Israel by not recognising it and therefore Israel wins international support. But if Hamas does recognise Israel - then what?

well then you won't find me disagreeing with anything ANYONE says (including shaolin and hardtranceprod) about israel.

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Originally posted by George Smiley We are in the same position that we were in when the PLO recognised Israel and look what that achieved - fuck all. Israel continues the occupation and shows no desire to establish a viable Palestinian state. It will make no difference if Hamas recognises Israel because Israel will continue the occupation and Palestinians lives will be such a misery that another group will simply take their place and continue the fight, and they will enjoy widespread support from ordinary Palestinians.

im not so sure things are so cut and dried. i've tried many many times to quit smoking, historical failures do not mean the future is set in stone. if hamas recognise israel and israel does not start to abandon the settlements, then my position would reverse completely. but someone, somewhere has to do SOMETHING.

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Originally posted by George Smiley If Israel wants the attacks to stop, then it must end the occupation, there is no other way...

yes, this is the crux of the matter. but so far there has been zero indication from any of the current palestinian factions that a complete withdrawal will gain israel anything. i would LOVE for israel to leave, but i just don't see that happening unless hamas renounce terrorism.

i think its a nasty chicken and egg scenario, with the palestinian people caught in the middle. someone has to be the bigger man and make the first steps, but neither side will do so until the other side does. israel, due to their obedient structure, could obviously do this more successfully, so perhaps the onus IS on israel. or indeed, perhaps the onus is on the international community, in particular the US.

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OK I'm not gonna address each of your points because, as a thread dedicated to Israel/Palestine I think we both know that before we know it we'll end up on page 29 having repeated ourselves at least 4 times per page!

However, just a few things:

First of all I am not arguing that Hamas shouldn't recognise Israel, because I think they should. So far I have only been saying why I think Hamas has not recognised Israel. The reason is because history tells them it won't achieve anything. The PLO were in no different position to Hamas now prior to Oslo when they recognised Israel. That did not lead to an end to the occupation, and end to Israeli aggression or an end to the settlements. The Palestinians have lost faith that jumping through Israel's hoops will ever get them what they want so IMO it would take a big gesture from Israel to restore the hope for peace that Israelis had immediately after Oslo.

As for whether Hamas should recognise Israel, IMO they should. This has nothing to do with whether I think Israel has a right to exist or not (FYI I do believe it has a right to exist in peace in clearly defined borders as close to '67 borders as can be agreed) but pure pragmatism on the part of Hamas. Before Hamas won the election, the pressure was on Israel because the Palestinians had complied with all the demands. However, the Hamas victory allowed the pressure on Israel to disappear because Hamas do not recognise their right to exist and the international community was more than happy to allow Israel carte blanche until such a point...

...if Hamas recognised Israel the ball would firmly be in Israel's court again because all the international support it currently enjoys (which prior to the election was against Israel) would evaporate and realign behind the Palestinians again. However, getting Hamas to recognise Israel would be subject to the problems above, ie, how can they trust Israel to act accordingley following their recognition?

Like I said earlier, I think Hamas were on the verge on striking a deal with Fatah to recognise Israel but it was hijacked by hardliners who kidnapped that soldier in order to provoke an Israeli response that would convince the Hamas moderates not to make that deal. The politics of recognising Israel for Hamas is something that will not be overcome easily. Not only would they probably lose the support of the more hardline branch (that would probably split and carry on attacks) they may also lose the support of the population if they want to battle to continue until their lives improve.

This is why I say that if Israel wants peace, if Israel wants Hamas to recognise its right to exist then there is no alternative but for Israel to make the first move by ending the occupation and dismantling the settlements. Then Hamas' task of moderating its supporters and mustering popular support for recognising Israel will be a hell of a lot easier than it is right now...

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton quote: RAFAH, Gaza Strip (Reuters) - Tens of thousands of Palestinians poured into Egypt from the Gaza Strip on Wednesday after militants blew up a border wall, and stocked up on food and fuel in short supply because of an Israeli blockade. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080123...SsgxeIirkxbbBAF

I found it very interesting that .... there was a wall and then the army was told to let them pass......
Real help or political move on the part of Egypt??

If real help, then why have a wall in the first place?

If all a facade then one hell of a move, this shows Egypt and the rest of the world that Israel is the heavy...

but also why the anger about the wall that Israel wants? is it not to stop rocket attacks?? the whole "reason" this shit is going on??

IMO: Israel needs to stop this shit....build the wall, compensate the displaced and then when Hammas or what ever future "Honey Comb Hideout" radical focktards start focking up, then take care of it. The first step has to be made and right now with Israel stopping the blockade.

p.s. werd


edit: not the only reason, but one of 10000000s

Last edited by LazFX on Jan-24-2008 at 14:20

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Originally posted by LazFX If real help, then why have a wall in the first place?

Well Israel is responsible for Palestine's borders. Altho they pulled out following their Gaza withdrawal, they made a deal with Egypt to man the borders. But they have to play by Israel's rules otherwise Israel will just send its troops to man the border crossings again...hence the wall (altho I'm sure Egypt has no desire for any Palestinians to be getting into the country, it is there because Israel wants it there)

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but also why the anger about the wall that Israel wants? is it not to stop rocket attacks??

LOL! That would have to be one fucking tall wall!!!!!!!

The wall is there, officially, to stop militants getting into Israel (to mount terrorist attacks). Unofficially it seems to be what Israel percieves as their future border in any settlement

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I found it very interesting that .... there was a wall and then the army was told to let them pass...... Real help or political move on the part of Egypt?? If real help, then why have a wall in the first place? If all a facade then one hell of a move, this shows Egypt and the rest of the world that Israel is the heavy... but also why the anger about the wall that Israel wants? is it not to stop rocket attacks?? the whole "reason" this shit is going on?? IMO: Israel needs to stop this shit....build the wall, compensate the displaced and then when Hammas or what ever future "Honey Comb Hideout" radical focktards start focking up, then take care of it. The first step has to be made and right now with Israel stopping the blockade. p.s. werd edit: not the only reason, but one of 10000000s

Israel will never have peace if they have a failed state right on their borders.

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley OK I'm not gonna address each of your points because, as a thread dedicated to Israel/Palestine I think we both know that before we know it we'll end up on page 29 having repeated ourselves at least 4 times per page! However, just a few things: First of all I am not arguing that Hamas shouldn't recognise Israel, because I think they should. So far I have only been saying why I think Hamas has not recognised Israel. The reason is because history tells them it won't achieve anything. The PLO were in no different position to Hamas now prior to Oslo when they recognised Israel. That did not lead to an end to the occupation, and end to Israeli aggression or an end to the settlements. The Palestinians have lost faith that jumping through Israel's hoops will ever get them what they want so IMO it would take a big gesture from Israel to restore the hope for peace that Israelis had immediately after Oslo. As for whether Hamas should recognise Israel, IMO they should. This has nothing to do with whether I think Israel has a right to exist or not (FYI I do believe it has a right to exist in peace in clearly defined borders as close to '67 borders as can be agreed) but pure pragmatism on the part of Hamas. Before Hamas won the election, the pressure was on Israel because the Palestinians had complied with all the demands. However, the Hamas victory allowed the pressure on Israel to disappear because Hamas do not recognise their right to exist and the international community was more than happy to allow Israel carte blanche until such a point... ...if Hamas recognised Israel the ball would firmly be in Israel's court again because all the international support it currently enjoys (which prior to the election was against Israel) would evaporate and realign behind the Palestinians again. However, getting Hamas to recognise Israel would be subject to the problems above, ie, how can they trust Israel to act accordingley following their recognition? Like I said earlier, I think Hamas were on the verge on striking a deal with Fatah to recognise Israel but it was hijacked by hardliners who kidnapped that soldier in order to provoke an Israeli response that would convince the Hamas moderates not to make that deal. The politics of recognising Israel for Hamas is something that will not be overcome easily. Not only would they probably lose the support of the more hardline branch (that would probably split and carry on attacks) they may also lose the support of the population if they want to battle to continue until their lives improve. This is why I say that if Israel wants peace, if Israel wants Hamas to recognise its right to exist then there is no alternative but for Israel to make the first move by ending the occupation and dismantling the settlements. Then Hamas' task of moderating its supporters and mustering popular support for recognising Israel will be a hell of a lot easier than it is right now...

excellent post george, agree 100%

as for the highlighted portion, what do hamas have to lose by recognising israel though? if things don't go as they rightly deserve, they can always change their position in the future. imo it would be a good move by hamas, as you rightly say, to put the emphasis and onus back on israel, and (hopefully) force the international community into action.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN excellent post george, agree 100% as for the highlighted portion, what do hamas have to lose by recognising israel though? if things don't go as they rightly deserve, they can always change their position in the future. imo it would be a good move by hamas, as you rightly say, to put the emphasis and onus back on israel, and (hopefully) force the international community into action.

What do they have to lose? Same thing as every political party - their support and along with it their existence...