Data, so called "facts", evidence, positions, opinions, accusations, presumptions and intellectual discourse can raise an already complicated issue to a level where it all becomes a blur.

That being said, I think it's fair to simplify and gel this over-considered and dated argument down to the bare bones of reality;

With all of the anti-discrimination laws we have had in place for decades now, coupled with hiring quotes and out-right favoritism (Affirmative Action) shown many minorities (including non-minority females) via the EOE programs of the 1980's and beyond, plus the breaks that were given to many minorities in terms of bank loans for homes and businesses, lowered SAT acceptance levels for college, and inner-city "busing" programs, etc...I feel that it's safe to say that enough equality exists now in this country between all of us that if ANYONE finds themselves socially at a level that is inferior to their peers, they can blame themselves.

This goes for anyone of any race or gender.

Look, not EVERYONE is created equal. In all races and genders, you will always have the Donald Trumps, or the P. Diddy's, or the Oprah Winfrey's who will rise to the top, self-made people of extraordinary talent and drive.

And then you will always have plenty of white trash, black trash, Hispanic trash, etc. But this myth that ALL blacks want to, or even can, rise above being in a lower class, if only they had another break here, or another free program there, is an absurd argument. Take a drive around this country sometime and you'll see PLENTY of "poh-white-trash". Being in a lower income class has nothing to do with any one races' color. It's just human nature!

It's like the lottery. It's been shown that something like 85% or more (if I recall correctly) of lottery winners will end up broke again within 5 years of winning an amount over a million dollars. Why? Because they were always meant to be what they are in life; Blue Collar. It's been this way throughout history. Every society has a blue collar class, a middle class, and an upper class. And it will never change.

This country is as free a country as you can possibly hope for, with a pretty good economy compared to most of the world's. You are what you make of yourself consequently. I have no sympathy for ANYONE who puts themselves where they are, and who then proceeds to gripe about it. They chose to be there. So let them be!

Accept it and move on.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

Last edited by donnybrasco on Feb-05-2008 at 19:38

Another factor may be stereotype threat. Though usually used in the confines of narrow, objectively measurable standards of achievement such as standardized tests and the like, it seems plausible that such psychological factors could affect success more generally. If so, then the promotion of the apparent gap in financial success between blacks and whites for the purposes of creating new programs to promote equality may itself contribute to the preservation of that gap.

i havent really examined race relations in particular detail but as a student of feminism i'd like to postulate the following idea:

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco With all of the anti-discrimination laws we have had in place for decades now, coupled with hiring quotes and out-right favoritism (Affirmative Action) shown many minorities (including non-minority females) via the EOE programs of the 1980's and beyond, plus the breaks that were given to many minorities in terms of bank loans for homes and businesses, lowered SAT acceptance levels for college, and inner-city "busing" programs, etc...I feel that it's safe to say that enough equality exists now in this country between all of us that if ANYONE finds themselves socially at a level that is inferior to their peers, they can blame themselves.

^^ this is the problem. formal and legislated "equality" is taken as evidence of actual equality, which it plainly isn't. equality in the form of legislation is merely a tool for breaking down institutionalised racism (or sexism) but it takes far more than a generation or two to reap real results.

if people merely look at anti-discrimination laws whilst ignoring the (very real) problems of institutionalised racism, they believe (as donny does) that there IS equality yet don't appreciate the informal barriers that exist that act in exactly the same ways as something like apartheid would. In a culture like the US, where the power balance is placed far in the hands of the employers, an employer doesn't have to tell a black man that he's not getting the job because he's black, so how does the formal equality laws really effect change for black prospective employees? Its very hard to prove discrimination in such an environment, especially when the overwhelming majority of people would use the formalised equality as evidence of actual equality.

According to germain greer (in the whole woman) anti-discrimination laws (specifically designed to combat sexism in the public sphere) in the UK have been utilised far more by men than they have by women. So legal frameworks are not the be-all and end-all of ending discrimination, and certainly not in a few generations.

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quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter Another factor may be stereotype threat. Though usually used in the confines of narrow, objectively measurable standards of achievement such as standardized tests and the like, it seems plausible that such psychological factors could affect success more generally. If so, then the promotion of the apparent gap in financial success between blacks and whites for the purposes of creating new programs to promote equality may itself contribute to the preservation of that gap.

Most definitely. It is a fine balance to strike between implementing programs that help and the effect the programs have of those who use them as people that need help. I think there are steps that can be taken to counteract such an effect however. The active integration, divulging and acceptance practices can go a long way into counteracting the perceived 'difference' between those accessing the help provided and those that do not. It has been suggested also that knowledge about the effects of mechanisms such as stereotype threat, halo effects, attribution biases and the like can be diminished by informing people about the effects they produce.

I think a problem with advancing and bettering the programs that are offered to help black americans get out of poverty is that there is no honest discussion about the subject. The information to construct a program that will work and is effective is available. There is however a lack of interest to actually develop these programs.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

The likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the "civil rights movement" which should have been over with in the 1970's, has a lot of the black minority stuck in a systematic "victim" attitude towards society as a whole. A lot of them blame everybody but themselves for their own predicament.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ...if people merely look at anti-discrimination laws whilst ignoring the (very real) problems of institutionalised racism, they believe (as donny does) that there IS equality yet don't appreciate the informal barriers that exist that act in exactly the same ways as something like apartheid would. In a culture like the US, where the power balance is placed far in the hands of the employers, an employer doesn't have to tell a black man that he's not getting the job because he's black, so how does the formal equality laws really effect change for black prospective employees?

You don't even live here. What do YOU know about our culture, racism in America, and the realities of discrimination in the U.S. versus what MTV and Hip-Hop videos tell you about it?

Nothing. That's what.

You make some pretty long-shot predictions about "institutionalized" racism, like every white person in America has an Axe to grind with every black person. It's a fucking myth.

Why do you think that it's OK to hire someone based first on their skin color, as opposed to their abilities...and hire them preferentially OVER hiring someone who is more qualified, but who happens to be white? Is that not racism?

When EOE was in full swing near the beginning of its implementation, a small company I worked for hired two black people in the Sales Dept. One male, one female. Neither was NEAR qualified,even for this simple job, but the company was willing to train them, just so the company could meet its EOE obligations.

Within 6 months, after neither proved to be any good at Sales, they were both suing the company for alleged "discrimination" (because they were asked to meet their quotas and they couldn't) and parachuted out with a settlement.

Now, I'm not saying that ALL black people are like this. But I always felt that these two in particular never had ANY intention of taking advantage of this opportunity presented to them, and the lawsuit was a forgone conclusion from the day they were hired for a job they were not qualified for.

A bum is a bum! It doesn't matter if you're black or white (and yes, I say "black" because I hate that term "African American", which I consider to be a separatist, anti-American saying...we should all be considered "Americans" first in this country, regardless of where we come from). I've known plenty of black people whom I've worked with in the past who are worthy of their excellent positions. They worked for it and used their abilities, intelligence and work ethic to get themselves there. They didn't sit around expecting a hand-out. And I know from talking to successful black people in this country, that they feel the same way about being judged for WHO they are in terms of work, success and pay, and not for what color their skin is.

But you take ANY person of ANY color, who is not qualified for a position that they didn't earn, and thrust them in to it, and all you're going to get is failure and a lawsuit. It's all someone of a lower ability knows.

The failure of Affirmative Action is the myth that there is SO much racism going on that THIS is the reason certain blacks ended up where they did. When in reality, it had nothing to do with their being black. Certain people just end up where they do because they're fucking DUMB! End of story! Color has no bearing on this fact!

I worked at another company where two guys from Africa worked. They had been in the states for a few years and they BOTH had nothing but disdain for black Americans in this country who sit around expecting hand-outs, have a low (or no) work ethic, and who cry "racism" every time they're called on their laziness. These guys didn't see the supposed "racism" that we are told exists endlessly by liberal media outlets.

The best thing we can do for ourselves in this country today is to stop favoring people based on their skin color and just let the chips fall where they may. And to stop trying to call attention to our differences by referring to each other as "white" and "African American". It's separatist bullshit that Politicians and people like Jesse Jackson encourage so that they can pocket the support of supposed "repressed" minorities. Classic "divide and conquer" stuff.

And MANY blacks do feel this way too, as was recently pointed out in a thread by Lira on the CNN story that backfired about the Democratic Primary Race, where they'd suggested that black women faced a "dilemma" about who to vote for; A woman, or another black person (because they are all supposedly so mindless and only vote based on race or gender). Liberal presumptions about racism are often as flawed as REAL racism itself, IMHO.

Raisin, you're heart is in the right place, but your idealism is pure played-out, misguided, misinformed old hippie movement crap from the 60's. Get with the new millennium already.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the "civil rights movement" which should have been over with in the 1970's, has a lot of the black minority stuck in a systematic "victim" attitude towards society as a whole. A lot of them blame everybody but themselves for their own predicament.

1,000% agree.

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the "civil rights movement" which should have been over with in the 1970's, has a lot of the black minority stuck in a systematic "victim" attitude towards society as a whole. A lot of them blame everybody but themselves for their own predicament.

Well there is plenty of blame to go around. While I agree that Jackson and Sharpton are not the best role models for black americans, to dismiss the cause they are fighting because you disagree with the methods they two choose to use is ludicrous. You can't just say, 'oh black people got only themselves to blame'. The issue is not nearly as simple as that. A serious problem with your position is, if only they are to blame, then why? Are they inherently different? Are white people inherently different? Why are they the only ones to blame? If your position is to be consistent then you would have to charge them with being different in some sense (negatively) then white people. To tell you the truth, I would love to see ANYONE try to defend that position.

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Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by venomX A serious problem with your position is, if only they are to blame, then why? Are they inherently different? Are white people inherently different? Why are they the only ones to blame? If your position is to be consistent then you would have to charge them with being different in some sense (negatively) then white people. To tell you the truth, I would love to see ANYONE try to defend that position.

He didn't say "all black people". He said "a lot".

What's to defend?

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The thing about money? It makes you do things that you don't want to do

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Well there is plenty of blame to go around. While I agree that Jackson and Sharpton are not the best role models for black americans, to dismiss the cause they are fighting because you disagree with the methods they two choose to use is ludicrous. You can't just say, 'oh black people got only themselves to blame'. The issue is not nearly as simple as that. A serious problem with your position is, if only they are to blame, then why? Are they inherently different? Are white people inherently different? Why are they the only ones to blame? If your position is to be consistent then you would have to charge them with being different in some sense (negatively) then white people. To tell you the truth, I would love to see ANYONE try to defend that position.

I'm not denying there are no socio-economic factors influencing the the lower economic standards of blacks. But, it also takes the motivation to pull oneself out of economic hardship that can bring about positive change.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco You don't even live here.

so what? you seem all too happy to make comments about all kinds of things you're not personally privvy to, whats the difference?

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco What do YOU know about our culture, racism in America, and the realities of discrimination in the U.S.

did you notice me talking about SEXISM, not racism? as well as the power relationship between workers and employers, which is the same across the world

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco You make some pretty long-shot predictions about "institutionalized" racism, like every white person in America has an Axe to grind with every black person. It's a fucking myth.

dont put words in my mouth fool. i made no such predictions. i merely compared institutionalised issues with each other, and their relationship to legislated equality. You need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Why do you think that it's OK to hire someone based first on their skin color, as opposed to their abilities...and hire them preferentially OVER hiring someone who is more qualified, but who happens to be white? Is that not racism?

please highlight the part where i said that

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco When EOE was in full swing near the beginning of its implementation, a small company I worked for hired two black people in the Sales Dept. One male, one female. Neither was NEAR qualified,even for this simple job, but the company was willing to train them, just so the company could meet its EOE obligations.

irrelevant. i made no references to affirmative action so i dont know why youre banging on about it?

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco The failure of Affirmative Action is the myth that there is SO much racism going on that THIS is the reason certain blacks ended up where they did. When in reality, it had nothing to do with their being black. Certain people just end up where they do because they're fucking DUMB! End of story! Color has no bearing on this fact!

where did i say there was a lot of racism going on? yes, there IS institutionalised racism, how much is up for debate. if you think formalised equality makes everything better after a few decades then you are sadly mistaken. laws don't change perception, and perception continues from generation to generation, albeit to a lesser degree. why do i believe there is racism in the workplace? because people are ignorant and biased and hold irrational beliefs the world over. Perhaps you could explain to me why you think the almighty US of A is atypical in this regard? racism is a problem in all societies.

quote:

Originally posted by donnybrasco Raisin, you're heart is in the right place, but your idealism is pure played-out, misguided, misinformed old hippie movement crap from the 60's. Get with the new millennium already.

haha, fuck off old man. its not my fault your reading comprehension is so bad that you go on a rant about all kinds of things that i never said or think. i am merely drawing a comparison between legislative equality concerning sexism and racism, and that such legislation is not the silver bullet for discrimination, at least not yet.

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