quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 there is no way i have time to read that post, but the jews are there and they aren't going anywhere. since they are there, do you propose kicking them out? How about kicking out all americans so that the natives can regain the land that was stolen from them, otherwise known as the United States. After all, the US government did far worse things to the native americans that the israelis do to the palestinians. Manifest destiny it was called. In order to achieve the "obvious certainty" the US government destroyed native society, obliterated native cultures, relocated hundreds of thousands of natives, and killed an unknown amount. The US essentially stole 3.7 million square miles of land from the native and in return gave back 55.7 million acres (2.7% of the land), mostly areas that are difficult to develop. Tell me, do propose that americans pick up and go back to europe, asia, and africa? I don't see how US history is any different. Looking at it on a purely percentage base, the israelis are giving back far more of the land they took from the palestinians than the americans gave back to the natives. i know the native get more in whole terms, but you also have to consider that israel gave up about half of what they took. that's considerable! how about a more realistic approach. you can't change the fact that jews took the land. that's done, the Palestinians will never get it back. the palestinians have to realize that. only when they realize that some of the land is gone, then things can settle down. I believe it is on the palestinians because there is no way you are going to move an entire country that is recognized by the UN, that's just unrealistic. however, i think the palestinians, and muslims in general, believe in their own cause a little too much, so that is going to be very difficult.

How would you feel if China decides to take over your country tomorrow?would you just sit and let it happen?and let them kill all your friends and family?

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quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer How would you feel if China decides to take over your country tomorrow?would you just sit and let it happen?and let them kill all your friends and family?

if you read up i said i understand the Palestinian position. i also said i understand the Israeli reaction to defend themselves. I don't take sides on this issue.

look, nothing will make the jews leave the middle east. People need to accept that. Saying that the jews have no right to the land does absolutely nothing because the jews have the land and they aren't giving it up. Arguably, by possessing it now they at least have a present right to the land. Furthermore, the UN validates that by recognizing Israel. people can continue to argue about how the Palestinian land was stolen, blah blah blah, stfu, that's history and it's not productive to do so.

But to answer your question, i absolutely wouldn't stand by. i wouldn't expect anyone else to do so either. however, there comes a point when reality must set in. now appears to be a pretty good time.

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 if you read up i said i understand the Palestinian position. i also said i understand the Israeli reaction to defend themselves. I don't take sides on this issue.

Right, there's no point talking to any degenrate immoral spineless pieces of shit who "don't take sides" when the injustice being done is the most easily intelligible concept in the world. The only thing you did with your responses so far was demonstrate exactly what I was talking about earlier. I can't really see any other state, by virtue of the ethnic/cultural make up of it's base population, get's carte blanche to do whatever the fuck it wants, wheather it's violating just about every UN resolution or call for observation of international law, or ethno-genocide and herding of an entire population... nah, none of that fucking matter at all. Let's ask the VICTIMS of their actions to keep their militant elements under control. "What the fuck do you think you're doing? They only want to slaughter you, wipe out your culture, identity, and take over your land!" Gee, I thought desperate situation called for desperate measures... I don't see it getting much more desperate than that frankly! So it's ok for a first world nation with plenty of wealth and resouces to bomb the shit out of third world nations where am economically high standard of living would be clean water and healthy food, let alone being utterly defenseless against the military might of an agressor nation, posing no real threat to it whatsoever. Or coordinate an intel op to overthrow goverments and install brutal pro-West dictaorships. Take a good fucking look in the mirror before you judge others. I've never been one to ethically or morally justify targetting civilians, having said that, I know I can never comprehend or understand the horror or frustration of the experience of living under a brutal military occupation so I'm not going to even pretend to be in a position to judge the means or methods employed by militant elements of it. Israel has no legitimate basis for existance, never did. And no, I'm not proposing "tossing out all Jews" from the Middle East. I don't have an overly simplified or retarded outlook. I've covered all this shit in the past, and can't be bothered to rehash something I've said over and over again, so this will have to do. I didn't bother formatting it to look like the orignal posts or replies, but here a link to the original thread:

http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...d=&pagenumber=1

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN that kind of rhetoric is only going to get more civilians (on both sides) killed. israel is recognised by an overwhelming number of nations around the world. like it or not, most foreign governments recognise israel's right to exist. thats never going to change. how far back should we take ? because if you trace the evolution of nations back far enough, someone was always getting displaced by someone else. more often than not theres a whole lot of bloodshed. should current australians or americans give back all the land to the descendants of the respective indigenous populations? i certainly dont think so. tell me, after 60 odd years of struggle, how much closer are the palestinian people to achieving a) a state of their own or b) the "destruction" (whatever that means) of israel? at the moment a) will never happen without hamas, and hamas are marginalised if their attitude to israel doesnt change. as for b) i mean seriously . youre throwing more and more civilians & militiamen against a modernised military with a draft. guerilla war has only ever been really successful at defeating a foreign power outside their own borders. israel is an established state, youre only guaranteeing perpetual war and more death & destruction. the israeli state is bigger in geogrpahical size today than it was at creation because people were unwilling to "accept it". the harder the palestinians fight, the more they lose. look at the destruction of lebanon the alternative to accepting it is merely more of the same bloody violence that have filled the last decades. no one's goals are any closer to fruition. why do you think more struggle is going to achieve more in the next 60 years? is struggle always worth it, even when the struggle is "right"? it just means more death. ] cowardly submission to power you say? defeatist pacifist bullshit? how many states would you categorise as being created "legitimately"? off the top of my head i cant think of too many. how many states do you think would be exempt from your category "consiously premeditated brutal plan[s] of theft and domination"? the answer to the israel question will be solved by a palestinian state who will use diplomacy instead of violence. israel will only stop the violence when it does not feel/is not threatened. as long as you have a very powerful organisation sitting on your doorstep that is dedicated to your destruction you will commit savage acts (sometimes thoroughly legitimately) and beget even more violence. until hamas realise the war has been lost more innocent people will be killed. only entering into a diplomatic relationship with israel will ever yield any results that might give peace a chance. feel free to throw around your "fight the power" mentality, but the simple fact is its that kind of bullshit that will never see anything change, and we'll be here in another 20 years criticising israel for killing civilians and the palestinians for blowing themselves up at market. well, a gradual annihilation is all you'll see until there is peace. and peace wont come without all parties recognising israel, wrongly or rightly. thats the reality. forget how "right" the entire cause is, if youre not winning, why lose even more just because youre on the morally superior team? who the fuck knows what an elected palestinian government of a palestinian state could achieve in negotiations with israel?? its never been tried before. it certainly couldnt achieve any less than the struggle against israel has. whatever. im supporting something that at least has hope for change, rather than some ideologically romantic notion of fighting against the world's injustices whilst ignoring the fact that this fight is only causing more of those injustices.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z No, I'm not proposing violence is the solution. I'll get into what I mean a little later in this post. So submission to power and accepting an unjust scenario somehow justifies it? As far back as is relevant . The past gazillion years are not. That's nothing more than a copout and refusal take resbonsibily and act ethicaly. Well, if the vast majority of them weren't wiped off the face of the earth, then they might have been able to demand some type of reparations . Let's assume that they were'nt eliminated and this scenario could actually be reality. In that case, the only reason why current Americans/Australians are here (i.e. in America/Australia), is because they inherited the land their forefathers illegitimately conquered and occupied. The implication of that is the following generations have atleast some level of responsibility to ensure the displaced people no longer have to continue to suffer from the injustices and their consequences imposed on them centuries ago. The fact of the matter is that current generations continue to reap the benefits of past injustices. Now since the current generation isn't responsible for something they didn't participare in doesn't change the fact that they continue to reap it's benefits. The reason for this is the fact that the indigenous population are still displaced and experiencing negative consequences the direct resulted from it. Now they can't undo they past, but they can make reperations for it. So they DO have a collective moral responsibilty to accommodate the indigenous population and make sure that they don't continue to feel the after effects of the past. And that doesn't mean they have to pack up their shit and leave, cuz that would be a somewhat similar situation to cause of the problem in the first place. If you ever considered the moral implications such a scenario and the consequent course of action to take, perhaps you would have arrived to a some similar conclusion. If you (generic you here) find that too inconveneint, you really have no say in a just solution to the problem. Well what the hell do you expect given their situation and the history of the conflict? NOTE: That doesn't mean I think their means are morally justifiable. No, it's the result of aggresive militaristic domination, expansion, and occupation supported by the West (UK, France, US) and a premeditated plan to carry it out, which is still continues to this day due to US support. Without the aid of the West to implement their agenda, they never could have done it in the first place and this situation wouldn't exist, and there wouldn't be so much deep seeded hatred on eigther side. I'm just as interested in seeing an end to this as you are, but there won't be an end until justice prevails, and that can't happen with a neglect of ethics, morality, and responsibility. Power needs to be excercised responsibly and ethicaly for a just peace. I already addressed that earlier. You're truly naive and delusional if you actually believe that. History and their own ideological literature have demonstrated the exact opposite. I've quoted several prominent and "respeceted" Zionists of the past demonstrating this. I don't feel the need to do it again, since you obviously ignored it before and I don't see why you wouldn't again. That a more appropriate decription of the IDF and Israeli Government. Hamas is an ant in comparison to a state and military that recieved billions of dollars of aid annualy, far superior state of the art military technology, and political support from the sole super power in the world. So sticking to elemtary morality, sticking to your principles, and looking for a just solution is a "fight the power" mentality? Well considering how often those in power are completely morally bankrupt, I guess it is majority of the time. In that case, I'd rather ascribe to that philosophy than submit to the power structure and be as unprincipled as them. I recognize that the state of Israel exists. Unlike alot of Arabs I know/have met, I refer to it as Israel, not Palestine. The reason for that is the fact that it's there and that what it is called. That doesn't mean I believe it's legitimacy is unquestionable or it's creation, continued expansion, and policies are morally justifiable. To say that you must accept it's "right" to exist implies entitlement, and I don't see how one can be entitled to something forcibly taken through aggression/terrorism, violence, displacement, persecution, collective punishment, and dehumanization. That's a higly pretentious demand to make of anyone. No you're not, you're supporting something that is guaranteed to fail and not result in a just or lasting peace. A large number of Israelis are good people and don't approve of all this sensless violence and injustice, as well as a large number of Palestinians. They're sick of decades of violence and insecurity, and just want to be able to live in peace. So I don't believe mutual respect and peaceful co-existance is impossible, but it certainly won't come about without a willingness to work together. Those in power have clearly demonstrated that they don't want that. Unilateral US support for Israel is a far cry from a "nuetral" stance of a third party interested in promoting a peaceful solution. The only thing that guarantees is a disproportionately more powerful and ever expanding Israel (and maintaining this status quo), and ofcourse the expected consequent reaction.

Your political correctness and hypocrisy is revolting.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 how about a more realistic approach. you can't change the fact that jews took the land. that's done, the Palestinians will never get it back. the palestinians have to realize that. only when they realize that some of the land is gone, then things can settle down. I believe it is on the palestinians because there is no way you are going to move an entire country that is recognized by the UN, that's just unrealistic. however, i think the palestinians, and muslims in general, believe in their own cause a little too much, so that is going to be very difficult.

If you want a realistic approach, but of US aid to Israel, the billions in tax dollars, military aid (in the form of tanks, bulldozers etc), political support (vetoing UN resolutions), and get rid of lobby groups like AIPAC that make sure no congressman will ever reach office unless his policy is basically pro-Zionist. That's realistic. I'll tell you what unrealistic is, expecting a resolution to this issue with US support to Israel. You shouldl'nt even bother using the term if you don't understand the situation.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Pardon my distaste for utter hypocrisy, cowardice, and dishonesty. I didn't mean to attack you personally but my anger at this situation would definetly rub anyone lacking a familiariy and/or a single standard the wrong way, and honestly sometime I don't give a fuck. That's their problem. If political correctness is worth more than human life, fuck people's feeling and insecurities. If you're interest, this came out not too long ago and will give you a quick summary of the problem:

http://www.occupation101.com/

It's up on google video for now, again. The first time I posted an embedded version of it, it was removed not too long after. But it's up again for now:

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Pardon my distaste for utter hypocrisy, cowardice, and dishonesty. I didn't mean to attack you personally but my anger at this situation would definetly rub anyone lacking a familiariy and/or a single standard the wrong way, and honestly sometime I don't give a fuck. That's their problem. If political correctness is worth more than human life, fuck people's feeling and insecurities. If you're interest, this came out not too long ago and will give you a quick summary of the problem:

self-righteous a bit!

i'm the furthest thing from politically correct. I just don't care about the situation that much because i have little interest vested in the situation outside of the general collateral consequences, which thus far, aren't overwhelming in my personal life. I have my own problems and my own life. Sure i feel bad for the palestinians, but i have no obligation to help, intervene, rally around, or even discuss their cause. As far as i'm concerned, "that's their problem." Cowardice and hypocritical. Please do explain that comment. I'm looking at this in a logical and level headed manner. you clearly are emotional about the situation which means you aren't thinking about it with a clear head. Sure, i understand the emotion behind it, but emotion is usually counter productive in problem solving.

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 self-righteous a bit! i'm the furthest thing from politically correct. I just don't care about the situation that much because i have little interest vested in the situation outside of the general collateral consequences, which thus far, aren't overwhelming in my personal life. I have my own problems and my own life. Sure i feel bad for the palestinians, but i have no obligation to help, intervene, rally around, or even discuss their cause. As far as i'm concerned, "that's their problem." Cowardice and hypocritical. Please do explain that comment. I'm looking at this in a logical and level headed manner. you clearly are emotional about the situation which means you aren't thinking about it with a clear head. Sure, i understand the emotion behind it, but emotion is usually counter productive in problem solving.

You and every single tax paying American citizen has a burden of responsibility, becuase their misery and plight has been perpetuate and laregely exists soley because of US support for Israel. The implication of living in a "free" or "democratic" society is a collectively burden of responsible for electing assholes to office. I know you don't give a fuck, thanks for being honest for once. Your comments are also reflective of why the assholes who get elected to office are completely unchecked when it comes to foreign policy, let alone most Americans are also ignoratn of domestic policy. The situation even exist the way it does right now if it weren't for it. Your "logic" is largely igrant of the facts, doesn't sound very "logical" to me. When the framework is largely devoid of factual and historical context, not only is it an ethically bankrupt (one in this paricular case, as those ommision aren't mere coincidence), but also intellectualy dishonest... hence have no logic or rationale. You can eigther bitch about my revultion and disgust arising from actually being familiar with a situation or be man enough to admit you were wrong, or aren't terribly informed. Don't expect me to be apologetic eigther. I've dealt with people with your level of understanding or knowlege for years now. In the process of trying to increase awareness, I've realized most people simply don't want to be informed or wish to remain ignorant in denial. The implications of acknowledging the reality of this situation (not limited to this particular case though) for any person with any sense of principles or ethics is demanding the federal goverment to cease it's illegal and unethical support for the state of Israel. Clearly that's too much to deal with for most people, partly becuase reasons already mentioned, but also in large part to make it easier to feel good about themselves and continue to tell themselves they're "good people." Acknowledging the the reality of the situaiton and simoultaneously being apathetic about it demonstrates a clear absense of priciples most people associate themselves, at least on a collective level. So thanks once agian for your honest input, you're only giving me more ammunition against your position. Despite my anger at this new developement given the appaling precedence of hypocritical policy and the historical background of the whole situation, which someone like yourself is probably not capable of comprehending, I still went ahead and attempted to offer some sort of apology for you getting caught in the middle of the verbal shrapnel. But interestigly enough, you decided to throw it back right at me. Nice. I guess that reflects your immunity from emotive involvement and refined sense of logic and reason? I guess I should be more selfabsorbed, willfully ignorant, and desensatized individual in order to rid myself of these ludicrous emotional responses caused by holding on to revolting concept like justice or priciples. Go ahead, take another stab at me .

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 self-righteous a bit! i'm the furthest thing from politically correct. I just don't care about the situation that much because i have little interest vested in the situation outside of the general collateral consequences, which thus far, aren't overwhelming in my personal life. I have my own problems and my own life. Sure i feel bad for the palestinians, but i have no obligation to help, intervene, rally around, or even discuss their cause. As far as i'm concerned, "that's their problem." Cowardice and hypocritical. Please do explain that comment. I'm looking at this in a logical and level headed manner. you clearly are emotional about the situation which means you aren't thinking about it with a clear head. Sure, i understand the emotion behind it, but emotion is usually counter productive in problem solving.

I understand where you're coming from, but you actually do have a personal stake in the issue. If you pay federal taxes, you are contributing to the Israeli occupation indirectly. Your government is acting on YOUR BEHALF in the interest of Israel, and only Israel, in the continued oppression and ethnic clensing of the Palestinians. There are a great number of people who hate you, not because of anything you did, but because of the actions of your government. A Palestinian's house is bombed or bulldozed, not only to do they blame Israel, but they blame the American's for supplying Israel with such tools and technology, AND supporting Israel's cause despite the widespread violations of international law. Think about where your taxes are going. Unfortunately, a lot of it is not for the benefit of Americans, but for the furthering American hegemony.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I understand where you're coming from, but you actually do have a personal stake in the issue. If you pay federal taxes, you are contributing to the Israeli occupation indirectly. Your government is acting on YOUR BEHALF in the interest of Israel, and only Israel, in the continued oppression and ethnic clensing of the Palestinians. There are a great number of people who hate you, not because of anything you did, but because of the actions of your government. A Palestinian's house is bombed or bulldozed, not only to do they blame Israel, but they blame the American's for supplying Israel with such tools and technology, AND supporting Israel's cause despite the widespread violations of international law. Think about where your taxes are going. Unfortunately, a lot of it is not for the benefit of Americans, but for the furthering American hegemony.

that's what i meant by collateral consequences and little vested interest. I understand all of that, but it really doesn't affect you as much as you think.

About the tax issue: Very little of your money actually goes to support israel (which i think should stop). The US gives Israel about 2 billion dollars a year out of a total budget of over 2.6 trillion dollars. It's an insignificant part of the total budget. You can think of it this way, for every dollar you pay in taxes to the US government, 0.0769% of it goes to israel. That's not enough to get me complaining. Put another way, a person who makes $200K a year and pays his taxes in full (about 52.5K), will only provide $40 dollars of support to israel. That's not even close enough for me to be upset.

About Palestinians hating me: i haven't personally been affected by this. any consequences are purely indirect and very slight, if existent at all.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Mar-08-2008 at 00:38

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z You and every single tax paying American citizen has a burden of responsibility, becuase their misery and plight has been perpetuate and laregely exists soley because of US support for Israel. The implication of living in a "free" or "democratic" society is a collectively burden of responsible for electing assholes to office. I know you don't give a fuck, thanks for being honest for once. Your comments are also reflective of why the assholes who get elected to office are completely unchecked when it comes to foreign policy, let alone most Americans are also ignoratn of domestic policy. The situation even exist the way it does right now if it weren't for it. Your "logic" is largely igrant of the facts, doesn't sound very "logical" to me. When the framework is largely devoid of factual and historical context, not only is it an ethically bankrupt (one in this paricular case, as those ommision aren't mere coincidence), but also intellectualy dishonest... hence have no logic or rationale. You can eigther bitch about my revultion and disgust arising from actually being familiar with a situation or be man enough to admit you were wrong, or aren't terribly informed. Don't expect me to be apologetic eigther. I've dealt with people with your level of understanding or knowlege for years now. In the process of trying to increase awareness, I've realized most people simply don't want to be informed or wish to remain ignorant in denial. The implications of acknowledging the reality of this situation (not limited to this particular case though) for any person with any sense of principles or ethics is demanding the federal goverment to cease it's illegal and unethical support for the state of Israel. Clearly that's too much to deal with for most people, partly becuase reasons already mentioned, but also in large part to make it easier to feel good about themselves and continue to tell themselves they're "good people." Acknowledging the the reality of the situaiton and simoultaneously being apathetic about it demonstrates a clear absense of priciples most people associate themselves, at least on a collective level. So thanks once agian for your honest input, you're only giving me more ammunition against your position. Despite my anger at this new developement given the appaling precedence of hypocritical policy and the historical background of the whole situation, which someone like yourself is probably not capable of comprehending, I still went ahead and attempted to offer some sort of apology for you getting caught in the middle of the verbal shrapnel. But interestigly enough, you decided to throw it back right at me. Nice. I guess that reflects your immunity from emotive involvement and refined sense of logic and reason? I guess I should be more selfabsorbed, willfully ignorant, and desensatized individual in order to rid myself of these ludicrous emotional responses caused by holding on to revolting concept like justice or priciples. Go ahead, take another stab at me .

a little dramatic! do you always write with that flare?

you're an idealist: that's great, but i'm not. but attacking me with adjectives doesn't prove anything and it is an ineffective method of persuasion. Trust me, i get the plight of the people and the history. I, however, do not think that we an obligation to be involved in the situation. I do think we should stop giving support to israel, but as i wrote above, it's not enough to concern me. Yes, my position is "self absorbed," and "desensitized" but i'm not willfully ignorant.

I don't know why you chose to attack me in the first place. i'm not a supporter of israel. i think US policy in the ME is fucked up! We should not be involved in the region at all. the day the oil runs out in Saudi arabia will be a joyous day.

Do you get this upset with the plight of the people in Sudan? they are being treated far worse than the Palestinians. I can at least respect your position if you get that heated for the Sudanese.

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 that's what i meant by collateral consequences and little vested interest. I understand all of that, but it really doesn't affect you as much as you think. About the tax issue: Very little of your money actually goes to support israel (which i think should stop). The US gives Israel about 2 billion dollars a year out of a total budget of over 2.6 trillion dollars. It's an insignificant part of the total budget. You can think of it this way, for every dollar you pay in taxes to the US government, 0.0769% of it goes to israel. That's not enough to get me complaining. Put another way, a person who makes $200K a year and pays his taxes in full (about 52.5K), will only provide $40 dollars of support to israel. That's not even close enough for me to be upset. About Palestinians hating me: i haven't personally been affected by this. any consequences are purely indirect and very slight, if existent at all.

I'll just say we have a difference of opinion and leave it there..

The main reason I feel such a strong interest over there is that the hatred towards us increases our chances of terrorism. Right now, our country is hated by many people who are willing to kill themselves in order kill some of us. Clearly, they have my attention now. I can't ignore the circumstances any longer. They want to kill me and my countrymen! Contrary to the escalation of conflict hardline Republicans lobby for, I would like us to pay attention to the occupied oppressed of the world, because they can lash out in very destructive ways. I don't want to be caught in the middle of them lashing out at us.