quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 but to speak pretty candidly towards issues that have been directed (I'd say ridiculously blown up) by our media.

I agree on that point, especially by FOX... although I'd categorize FOX as being almost pure propaganda, nothing less.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo awww did Newt hurt your delicate sensibilities....poor thing.

I don't think so, since the attack was rather baseless to begin with. I don't even like or support Obama for crying out loud, but the ad hominem directed at him is quite sad to say the least. Surely you can appreciate the irony of playing the reverse race card where it doesn't even apply.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Surely you can appreciate the irony of playing the reverse race card where it doesn't even apply.

surely, if you can show me how Gingrich "played the reverse race card"

failing that, i hardly see your point.

Gingrich demostrated a obvious weakness in Obama's position being a President. a flaw in Obama's logic that Obama wants you to overlook. not a black weakness or a polka-dot weakness...a weakness.

not once did Gingrich mention race in ANY context. if it weren't for the fact that everybody knows Obama is black and him using certain pronouns describing Obama , Gingrich could have been talking about an Asian woman FFS. so forgive me if i accuse you of pulling a "race" card.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo surely, if you can show me how Gingrich "played the reverse race card" failing that, i hardly see your point. Gingrich demostrated a obvious weakness in Obama's position being a President. a flaw in Obama's logic that Obama wants you to overlook. not a black weakness or a polka-dot weakness...a weakness. not once did Gingrich mention race in ANY context. if it weren't for the fact that everybody knows Obama is black and him using certain pronouns describing Obama , Gingrich could have been talking about an Asian woman FFS. so forgive me if i accuse you of pulling a "race" card.

Gee, I don't know... how about asserting Obama's comments were nothing more than mere politics, as part of his insinuation? That's implicity playing the race card, which isn't hard to miss.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo surely, if you can show me how Gingrich "played the reverse race card" failing that, i hardly see your point. Gingrich demostrated a obvious weakness in Obama's position being a President. a flaw in Obama's logic that Obama wants you to overlook. not a black weakness or a polka-dot weakness...a weakness. not once did Gingrich mention race in ANY context. if it weren't for the fact that everybody knows Obama is black and him using certain pronouns describing Obama , Gingrich could have been talking about an Asian woman FFS. so forgive me if i accuse you of pulling a "race" card.

ha ha

Last edited by LazFX on Mar-19-2008 at 18:52

Just my 2 cents but I've watched one other speech by him and personally, even if that wasn't written by him (which I don't believe it is), he pulls it off amazingly.

Something I found on DIGG:

quote:

He was the chief editor of the Harvard Law Review. Trust me, you don't get to that position without knowing how to write and write well. Remember, he was a professor and an academic before getting into politics. He wrote his own book, the Iraq speech, and the victory/stump speech he's been walking around with. He has editors and people who proofread, but he is a writer.

I would tend to believe the DIGGers because for someone not to have written that themselves, and be that natural in their delivery (in all their speeches) would be an extreme accomplishment IMHO.

Another interesting comment:

quote:

I am not an Obama supporter, I plan on voting for John McCain, however I am an open minded individual who can appreciate one of the most prolific speakers of my generation ( I'm currently 25 ). Barack Obama is just that. Barack Obama's speech was intelligent, inspiring, and could very easily serve as the foundation for a serious dialogue about race relations in America. This was a speech that will be replayed and quoted in Political Science and Sociology classes for years to come, and rightfully so. While I still do not agree with his feelings on many of the major issues we're facing as a country this election, I can appreciate a historic moment when I see it, and that's exactly what this was. Kudos to Barack.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo Obama is toast >LINK<

Okay, that was funny.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo surely, if you can show me how Gingrich "played the reverse race card" failing that, i hardly see your point.

Then perhaps I can make one, or at least try.

quote:

Gingrich demostrated a obvious weakness in Obama's position being a President. a flaw in Obama's logic that Obama wants you to overlook. not a black weakness or a polka-dot weakness...a weakness. not once did Gingrich mention race in ANY context. if it weren't for the fact that everybody knows Obama is black and him using certain pronouns describing Obama , Gingrich could have been talking about an Asian woman FFS. so forgive me if i accuse you of pulling a "race" card.

Let's see if I can sum up our dear honest Newt's argument (coming from such a wonderful honest fellow like Newt, that's almost funny on the face itself, but I digress):

The Reverend was saying things that were so dishonest, so Anti-American, so wrong. Obama should have flat out repudiated the Reverend. Furthermore, at the very least Obama should have had a conversation with him at some point to tell him how wrong he is. And if Obama can't tell the Reverend these things, if he can't communicate with him about why he thinks he's wrong, how can he lead our country? How can he tell other countries how wrong they may be with their policies and actions, especially if they're against democracy or in the best interests of the United States?

I don't want to put words in Newt's mouth, so if these sound unfair or incorrect than I'll accept it, but this is at least what I heard, more or less. Let me try to to get to these points.

In regards to whether or not the Reverend was wrong in what he said, I think that is certainly the perogative of Obama to object and state unequivocally that Wright was wrong in what he said. Now as to whether or not that's true with what Wright had said, I think honestly that's a very worthy point of contention to make and discuss. Now keep in mind, what I said is not HOW Wright said it - to that end I think there's no question that was wrong.

But as to whether or not our country is truly treating African-Americans fairly, I really don't want to be completely closed off to the idea that we may not actually the wonderful, nondiscriminatory country that we purport. It's a conversation that I think is worth having, and Obama really emphasized this point in his speech. As a male Caucasian, I can only look through my own eyes and state as objectively as possible what I see. But I have to accept the fact that even though I try hard to be objective at times, it simply is not the same unless I truly walk into the shoes of someone else whom I'm having a discussion with. I am not African-American. I do not know what it is like to be African-American. Of course I have friends throughout the years that are African-American, but that certainly does not give me a fucking honorary badge of any sort when discussing issues pertaining to them such as race and discrimination.

My point is this: whether or not Wright was wrong in saying what he said does not dismiss the fact that he said it and felt it. It also does not dismiss the fact that there very well may be many other African Americans who feel the exact same way as he does. In fact his remarks are not the first time I've heard of such sentiments from the African American community. Can I honestly just simply be dismissive of what he said and brand him as unAmerican, unPatriotic, and blasphemous for saying such things about my country and how I think things are here? Or should I listen and ponder that there is an underlying reason as to why I keep hearing this from folks in the African American community?

Even if I believe they are wrong in the end and disagree with what they said, I think the conversation is worth having to at least hear what they have to say. Because if there's a chance of some validity to their arguments, then the opportunity exists to promote some change for the better, and to me that's a conversation worth having.

Point 2, that Obama should have repudiated Wright, well, I guess this might be a valid point if we, as a Christian nation and wonderful Christians that we all are, repudiate not just the sin but the sinner at all turns. Afterall, this is indeed what our beloved President had done with the Reverend Pat Roberts on matters about whether or not to invade Iraq:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLI...iraq/index.html

Nevermind that Roberts is one of the most inflammatory shithead pseudo-Christians this planet has ever seen, someone who believes that God allowed 9/11 to occur as punishment for the evils of this country.

Or how about the Reverend John Hagee, a personal endorser or the GOP candidate John McCain, who embraced with full vigor this crazy SOB's endorsement who calls the Catholic Church "The Great Whore" and "False Cult System":



And on to point 3, that Obama should have repudiated Wright. Just like, of course, McCain who repudiated the nutbag Hagee, or Roberts who whispers in the ear of our President. Or how about the rotten turd, Jerry Falwell, who said 9/11 was caused as a result of all the homosexuality in our country, who just so happened to have our President's ear on Supreme Court nominees:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/13/p...gin&oref=slogin

And that Bush kept in touch with Falwell, up to a month just prior to his death:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalr...ll_funeral.html

And had such wonderful things to say about Falwell on his death:

http://www.reuters.com/article/news...542579420070515

Surely Bush repudiated Falwell, just as Obama should be repudiating the man Wright, right?

Or how about a sitting GOP Senator, our dearly beloved Senator Inhofe who said this about 9/11:

quote:

"the spiritual door was opened for an attack against the United States of America"

All because America pressured Israel to give away parts of the West bank.

Surely Bush and McCain have repudiated him, just as Obama should be repudiating the man, Reverend Wright, and not what he said, right?

And as for Newt's last point, how can Obama be a leader if he can't somehow call out someone doing something wrong in the world? Gosh, I almost blinked at that one. Is someone like Newt going to try to convince me that his fearless leader in George Bush has been nothing but exemplary in this regard? That his fearless leader has been a really fucking shiny example of calling out those who do wrong in the world?

Does this really need remarking?

This is no more a stain on Obama than the Wingnutters trump up as their leader or potential leader. But of course you hear so very little in comparison by our media. Such issues like the glamorous endorsement of Hagee to McCain or the whispering in the ear of Bush by the nutbags Falwell or Robertson receive narry a mention when we've got someone like Obama to Swiftboat out there.

And this is exactly what Obama was talking about in his speech. We can have inflammatory discussions. We can have incendiary remarks and smears just like we had 4 years ago. We can be left up to the world of Drudge via insinuation, guilt by association, and nonsequitur arguments that lead us nowhere when discussing what we OUGHT to be doing now, or we can decide to fall back on the world of the National Enquirer and throw mud at each other, hoping to Gawd that something sticks and then running with it no matter the consequences.

Unfortunately we all know it will be the latter and not the former, primarily because it's not just the media's fault, but our fault as well. We've been spoonfed heresay and juicy gossip not just by People Magazine and TMZ, but by our own fucking media. It's where they live and have felt quite comfortable now. The intellectual capacity has been wholly absent in any worthy news story or news cycle. I cannot begin to tell you how brave I think Obama is for trying to give us this opportunity to rise above the muck and have worthy conversations about things like race in our country. It's honestly what made his speech so compelling - not just for what he tackled but what he's given us as an opportunity to tackle and discuss.

The problem, of course, is that our media, the Right Wing Noise Machine, or so many in the public would be willing to have that conversation, which might actually do something totally alien to everyone - bring us a bit closer together. God knows we could sure use that opportunity. God knows we've been too far apart for too long. I know it's naive, and I know there will forever be major differences between the Right and the Left, but the opportunity exists out there to be able to bring us together just that much closer if we allow ourselves to do so.

Unfortunately and quite sadly, I just don't think that will happen.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo what? am i supposed to get caught up in his "eloquence" and worry about whether people get the impression that he wrote it opposed to someone else? seems to be the only benchmark for considering the next leader of the free world around here. no, fuck that. unlike you, i'm not too worried about the delivery or technique as much as i am what he's saying and why he's saying it. do you understand what he was trying to say? awww did Newt hurt your delicate sensibilities....poor thing. forget about me dude. who cares what i say. you attacking me about this says more about you anyway you doped up walking brainfart. what about what Newt said? attack that if youre so offended somebody said something uncomfortable about your boy...or don't and go hit the f**kin pipe and melt into a couch somewhere. ...but no. all youre capable of is attacking FoxNews. ooooohhhh big man as if you weren't already enough of a cliche'

Apparently you didn't even read my original response on the topic before making this reply.

Thanks for the ad hominems though.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Just my 2 cents but I've watched one other speech by him and personally, even if that wasn't written by him (which I don't believe it is), he pulls it off amazingly. Something I found on DIGG: I would tend to believe the DIGGers because for someone not to have written that themselves, and be that natural in their delivery (in all their speeches) would be an extreme accomplishment IMHO. Another interesting comment:

you are absolutely correct, he has to be an amazing writer being the chief editor of the harvard law review. i don't even like obama because i think he's blowing smoke up america's ass, but he's an eloquent speaker and brilliantly intelligent.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z how about asserting Obama's comments were nothing more than mere politics?

is Obama not a politician?

aren't we talking about a black man?

aren't we talking about a black politician wanting to seperate himself politically from someone who was close to him?

regardless, none of that has anything to do with the validity of Gingrich's argument and if thats all you can come up with then...i don't even have to say, really.

quote:

That's implicity playing the race card

wrong. no one has to imply Barak Obama is black, it's understood.

if you have to resort to accusing someone of "implying" that the person they were talking about was black then you've kinda missed the point. it's called the race card.

let it go man.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby Apparently you didn't even read my original response on the topic before making this reply.

i did. but i didn't quote that post did i?

no, i quoted the one where you accuse me of not understading what i just read. the one where you just wanted to be a condecending ***** not wanting to "reward me" for some reason and asserting that i have the "inability to make rational decisions" together with some BS about WMD's. whatever.

you want to talk about Obama or Gingrich then man up. otherwise STFU.

quote:

Thanks for the ad hominems though.

back at ya.