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Nemesis44
ZZZZZzzzzzz.....



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Brighton
Re: Re: Re: keying records

quote:
Originally posted by hooj1
+100,000,000,000
there are different styles of theory and scales that are not listed or mentioned in convectional western music schools of thought. if you have a trained ear just go by that....if your tone def let the computer do it or better yet DO NOT DJ.


Yes, but trance generally doesn’t use micro tonality as far as I know and does ‘conform’ to the Western style of scales etc. You will also find that a lot of these different theories overlap and can still be adapted to work with each other. Using this for the basis against HM is not a very good argument, as you would just have to use a bit of initiative and you would able to work it out.

To the other negative poster, to even for a minute believe that the software chooses what you mix is a complete fallacy and only highlights the lack of understanding on the subject which would question what your decision to not use it is based on other than prejudice alone.

I do however accept that not everyone can or wants to do it. This is perfectly fine, but the original thread poster did ask the question ‘How’ and didn’t ask if he should or not.

Cheers
Nem


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Old Post Apr-09-2008 10:07  United Kingdom
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Stu Cox
Supreme smackaddict



Registered: Mar 2003
Location: Southampton, UK
Re: Re: keying records

quote:
Originally posted by DiscoStew
I don't.

You should choose tracks based on what you think sounds together, not based on what some computer program thinks is good, IMO.

Just because you key your records doesn't mean it becomes the sole factor in what tracks you play and in what order... in fact it doesn't even need to play a part in track selection at all.

I have all of my tunes keyed up, but when I'm picking a track to play I don't think "right, what's in a matching key?" - I find a track I think would work next (without even looking at the keys), and THEN I look at the key. Half of the time I'll play it anyway even if it's not in a matching key, but the fact that I know it's not going to match means I know to avoid clashing so I'll do quite a sharp mix, a late mix, or I'll EQing it heavily.

Of course the best thing is that if I know the tunes ARE in matching keys, I can really take advantage of working the two together.


Basically my point is that keying your records can simply be an extra bit of information to help you decide the best way to mix two tracks together - it doesn't have to have any bearing on your tracklist.


I'm not saying I never let the key influence my track selection - some tracks just sound amazing when brought in in-key, so if you've got a few options of tracks to play before such a track, you can pick the one that will let you do that. But whether you decide to allow yourself to do that or not is totally up to you. I would recommend any DJ of any genre at least have a go with keyed tunes / harmonic mixing.

The whole idea of "the tracks played are the most important thing" is great, but if you completely mash a mix into a tune, it's not going to have the impact it could have had.


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Old Post Apr-09-2008 10:13  United Kingdom
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SteelWolf
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ (for now)

Just out of curiosity... how long have DJ's been using mixing by key? I imagine its a fairly new concept... I remember everyone RAVING about how Armin did it in like.. 2003 or 2004. Because listening to stuff rom like 1996-1998... I don't think thats harmonically mixed and it sounds just fine to me.


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quote:
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Old Post Apr-09-2008 11:22  United States
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Stu Cox
Supreme smackaddict



Registered: Mar 2003
Location: Southampton, UK

quote:
Originally posted by SteelWolf
Just out of curiosity... how long have DJ's been using mixing by key? I imagine its a fairly new concept... I remember everyone RAVING about how Armin did it in like.. 2003 or 2004. Because listening to stuff rom like 1996-1998... I don't think thats harmonically mixed and it sounds just fine to me.

Some DJs have got a natural ear for it, which could well be one of the things that set the now-big-names apart from other DJs around at the time. Dave King (djdk on here) is one of these lucky sods - he doesn't key his tunes, but whenever I've had a mix with him he's managed to pick tracks that are in matching keys just about every time.

I suppose it does depend on your mixing style as well - I used to get by fine just doing the old bass switch technique on just about every single mix, but now that I have all of my tunes keyed I can vary things a lot more and I'm not so limited on every mix.

I have heard some seriously horrible clashes on some early Oakey and Nick Warren mixes I've listened back to recently though.


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Old Post Apr-09-2008 13:40  United Kingdom
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Nemesis44
ZZZZZzzzzzz.....



Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Brighton

DJs have been aware of this for a long time, although it’s not until more recent years that it’s been shared. I was doing it long before I actually new the concept or name of what I was engaged in.
Back in the day, if you had a record that you were trying to mix that just sounded rough you would take it off the deck and whack another on. You may have seen many DJs do this in the past.
Eventually you pick it up so that you know what will sound good but the more structured approach is relatively new as the internet has made sharing information much easier. Camelot deserve a large amount of credit for creating the easy mix system, but that was based on knowledge that was already out there from the DJs of the time.

I have in the past heard people say “I’m not going to mix that, it just sounds wrong” and by that they were actually talking about compatible musical tonality.

Having listened to a lot of my old mixes pre 2000 and as early as 1992 I found that I was favouring harmonically pleasing mixes instinctively.

Although I am not classically trained I have played musical instruments since about the age of 15 and messed around with ‘Trackers’ since they came out on the Amiga so did have a basic understanding of why things worked or didn’t. You will often find that many DJs have some element of music in their past be it trained or not and the ability to hear tone is there for many of them. Armin being no exception, although I don’t know when exactly he starting marking up his records with key etc. he will most definitely have been aware of this.

In other words, DJs have been doing this for a long time even if it was by accident, but they would all have worked out something that sounds particularly pleasing when mixed together and may even have thought, that’s how I want to sound the whole time.

As Stu Cox stated it’s not something that you must do, consider it a weapon in your arsenal of things that you can do as a working DJ. And if it helps create energy or emotion and ultimately pleasure from your listening audience how can this be a bad thing?

If something sounds good though, there will be a musical explanation as to why, whether or not it was based on musical knowledge or just instinct is beside the point. What understanding HM will do is essentially take the guess work out of the process and can also present you with other options that you may not have considered previously.

For a lot of DJs you will find that it tends to help them break away from those safe mixes that they know sound good and might repeat too often, as they can see that they have more options available to them and will understand why the original idea worked so well but now have a load more options.

I will pretty much mix harmonically all the time, but that doesn’t mean that I use strictly the Camelot approach. Having developed an understanding of chords and scales has helped a lot and has widened the options greatly. A good example of this is to break down a guitar chord. You will find things in there that work other than just the 4th and 5th, that still sits in the same scale but might not have been an obvious choice to start with.

I’m also for the most part thinking at least a couple of tracks ahead when I play and have ways of jumping around keys and getting to where I want to be if I feel that there is something that has to be played.

It also doesn’t have to be strictly about flow and matching keys, it can be about picking deliberately unmatched keys that give that subtle or not so subtle lift to a set (so called Modulation mix) where you do a quick swap of EQ or fader and just send the dance floor into orbit.

It can also open up options to start mixing records in totally new places and bringing in melodies on top of an existing track that just would not have worked otherwise.

I have always thought it quite strange that given we are mixing music, how can someone not think that musical techniques don’t apply? On that note though I know we all have our own different ways of approaching this, and some may want more knowledge than others.

With regards to software, I have never used key detection applications. Never had the need and as pckRaistlin said, it’s probably quicker to do it by ear anyway. I personally don’t trust it and see no real need for it. Once you develop speed at doing this then it’s pretty much like second nature and is far more reliable for me to do. Some people like this method though so each to his/her own.

And as Stu says, some people can 'just do it'.

Cheers
Nem


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Old Post Apr-09-2008 13:43  United Kingdom
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djdk
Nutritional Overachiever



Registered: Jul 2003
Location: London

quote:
Originally posted by Stu Cox
Some DJs have got a natural ear for it, which could well be one of the things that set the now-big-names apart from other DJs around at the time. Dave King (djdk on here) is one of these lucky sods - he doesn't key his tunes, but whenever I've had a mix with him he's managed to pick tracks that are in matching keys just about every time.




strangly enough i find my ability to do this is enhanced by beer, but completely destroyed by smoking weed.

i think stu and nem nailed it here tho, its merely one of many techniques any good dj will use to create a set


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Old Post Apr-09-2008 13:56  United Kingdom
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SteelWolf
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Tucson, AZ (for now)

^ Ah I see... I was never into the whole harmonic thing, but I understand what you mean. I have often yanked a record after it sounded funky in the cue. I guess we all can at least determine what sounds clashy eh? Hmm 10 years into mixing maybe its time I start to tinker a whee bit eh?


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quote:
Originally posted by RJT
I think it's more like throwing a baby shower for an abortion.


quote:
Originally posted by Kevy Kev
When I lived in Vegas I once peed in the elevator at the MGM, cut it off mid stream to let a family get in then finished peeing when they got out of the elevator.

Old Post Apr-09-2008 17:56  United States
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david.michael
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Dayton, OH, USA

quote:
I have all of my tunes keyed up, but when I'm picking a track to play I don't think "right, what's in a matching key?" - I find a track I think would work next (without even looking at the keys), and THEN I look at the key. Half of the time I'll play it anyway even if it's not in a matching key, but the fact that I know it's not going to match means I know to avoid clashing so I'll do quite a sharp mix, a late mix, or I'll EQing it heavily.

Of course the best thing is that if I know the tunes ARE in matching keys, I can really take advantage of working the two together.


Basically my point is that keying your records can simply be an extra bit of information to help you decide the best way to mix two tracks together - it doesn't have to have any bearing on your tracklist.


Quality post, Stu... I was hoping someone would present it this way. Took the words right out of my mouth.

Old Post Apr-09-2008 18:20  United States
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pkcRAISTLIN
arbiter's chief minion



Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Re: Re: Re: keying records

quote:
Originally posted by Stu Cox
Half of the time I'll play it anyway even if it's not in a matching key, but the fact that I know it's not going to match means I know to avoid clashing so I'll do quite a sharp mix, a late mix, or I'll EQing it heavily.


yes, agree completely. that's one great thing about having keyed records that people don't often mention.

and an excellent post nem


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Old Post Apr-12-2008 04:21  Australia
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bucke
is bigger than Deadmau5



Registered: Nov 2006
Location: los angeles, USA

quote:
Originally posted by SteelWolf
Just out of curiosity... how long have DJ's been using mixing by key? I imagine its a fairly new concept... I remember everyone RAVING about how Armin did it in like.. 2003 or 2004. Because listening to stuff rom like 1996-1998... I don't think thats harmonically mixed and it sounds just fine to me.


many of tiesto's old isos albums have tracks that are mixed in key.


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She indeed is a goddess. I would cut her body in half and hang her upper half in the shower and take her lower and fuck it on my bed.

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www.bucke.podomatic.com

Old Post Apr-12-2008 16:44  Romania
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Stu Cox
Supreme smackaddict



Registered: Mar 2003
Location: Southampton, UK

I've just noticed that in Nem's guide above he talks about using Saltwater - The Legacy... funnily enough, that was actually the first tune I ever keyed up and tried harmonic mixing with!

I wonder if you used it as an example at some point before on TA and that was what inspired me to try it?


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Old Post Apr-12-2008 17:59  United Kingdom
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