quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo yeah, tell that to the millions of people he was talking about do you think people "cling to implicitly stupid ideas" like the one's Obama described out of bitterness or because of other more personal reasons? my point is it was a an arrogant elitist sell he was trying to make in San Francisco. no where close to the populist ideals he espouses. all eveidence, despite what he verbalizes on the stump in the places he was refering, points to a very different person. nope, not gonna be President.

You do realize that I'm from rural PA and he's right. People there do cling to guns and religion when times are tougher. Reason being that guns are for self defense and we all see that crime rates go up as jobs are lost and people start running out of options. My dad said that the gun shops have never been busier, which is awfully concerning considering the economic situation is pretty bad and guns aren't cheap. A similar thing happened back in 1999 when people were worried about Y2K and doomsday stories abounded. Religion, as we see all through history, is more revered when times are tough because it gives people hope that better things are ahead. Bitterness about the government and falling on tough times don't provide the foundation for gun rights and religion, but they will strengthen them.

Also, what's so wrong with being bitter? It's not like it's a blight on those who are bitter, and just because they are doesn't mean they're not proud, hopeful, or many of the other things that the Clinton and McCain campaigns have been trying to say you can't be when bitter.

This is yet another bullshit attack against Obama started by the Clinton supporters who are supporting a candidate with no chance of being nominated by a "by the people" process, unless the only people you are concerned with are the 700+ superdelegates.

You guys are probably right, he won't be President thanks greatly in part to Hillary's bitter, distorted attacks on a member of her own party. We'll be stuck with McCain who will do no better than Bush and keep us plagued by war and economic downturn. Congrats, Hillary. Maybe after 4 more years of the same, the people will blindly ignore how awful of a candidate you are and elect you to clean up the messes that you helped create. Cross your fingers....

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

The fact that this is even an issue shows precisely what is wrong with this country's political system. We bitch and moan that our politicians lie to us, and then when one says something with a high degree of truth to it that is uncomfortable, we say "how can this man be President if he doesn't tell us what we want to hear?"

The whole think reeks of hypocrisy. I'm sorry, I want a President who is willing and able to speak the truth even when it isn't always what makes us feel good about ourselves.

And for those saying that he is somehow challenging the right to have a gun or worship, that's bull - he's saying that those are security blankets many people (read: NOT ALL) in rural towns across America are turning to with more fervor in the wake of economic disaster. Fucking pundits are ruining this country by playing with our selective sense of moral outrage.

edit: and Hillary is supposed to be more "in touch" with the rural electorate? Hillary has had a personal security detail for twenty-five years!

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov edit: and Hillary is supposed to be more "in touch" with the rural electorate? Hillary has had a personal security detail for twenty-five years!

But she was drinking shots of whiskey the other day. She's definitely just like the common man, even if it was a high shelf brand like Crown Royal, a Canadian blended whiskey, lol.

Hillary could throw one hell of a inauguration party with Celine Dion providing the tunes and Crown Royal sponsoring the booze.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

Here's a fine Democratic "elitist" for you, essentially saying the exact same thing as Obama:

quote:

The politics of the Karl Rove era were designed to distract and divide the very people who would ordinarily be rebelling against the deterioration of their way of life. Working Americans have been repeatedly seduced at the polls by emotional issues such as the predictable mantra of "God, guns, gays, abortion and the flag" while their way of life shifted ineluctably beneath their feet. http://www.opinionjournal.com/edito...ml?id=110009246

Damn elitist, the whole lot of them, even Jim Webb who's son is in Iraq.

If you haven't read this book yet, now's your chance to get a good point of view of what this issue is all about :

http://books.google.com/books?id=AJ...-with-thumbnail

(plus it's about my state - yippie.)

BTW, I think Obama just bitchslapped both Hillary and especially McCain in this response:



Fuck off, McCain. You are nothing but more of the same with the same identical policies as Mr. Dipshit 28% currently in charge and bending us all over. Let's just keep trying to attack Obama for being an elitist while we have "Mr. Straightshooter" tell us how down to earth he is and demonstrate to us his moral character.

You know, the one who's ex-wife got badly disfigured from a wreck, the one whom he committed adultery on with his current wife 30 years younger than he, the one who had 3 children with John whom he completely fucking disregarded for his little elitist wife who also happened to fund the shit out of his political campaigns in the past.

But of course, since Obama is a librul, he fucking sips lattes with his fucking pinky finger in the air holding his fucking teacup and is also the true elitist.

Oh, and by the way, John Yoo's torture memo came out essentially stating it was legal to authorize torture and piss all over the 4th Amendment, our top Administration officials including CIA director George Tenet, Condoleeeeeeeeeeeeza Rice, Cheney, Rummy, Ashcroft, and Powell, discussed and approved of torture methods on detainees who “would be slapped, pushed, deprived of sleep or subjected to simulated drowning, called waterboarding.”

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPol...=4583256&page=4

Strangely, the only voice with a conscience happened to be Ashcroft:

quote:

According to a top official, Ashcroft asked aloud after one meeting: “Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly.”

Oh, and we just happened to have learned by Bush approved of those meetings with this story on Friday:

quote:

President Bush says he knew his top national security advisors discussed and approved specific details about how high-value al Qaeda suspects would be interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency, according to an exclusive interview with ABC News Friday. “Well, we started to connect the dots, in order to protect the American people.” Bush told ABC News White House correspondent Martha Raddatz. “And, yes, I’m aware our national security team met on this issue. And I approved.” http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/LawPol...=4635175&page=1

But no, let's worry about the fucking so-called "elitism" of Obama.

Then let's worry about the fucking bowling score of Obama after that, because that's unbelievable news in it's own right too.

And it that doesn't cut it enough, we can always fall back on the fucking haircut for John Edwards.

Or how Hillary feels about Monica.

Or how big Hillary's boobs are.

Or if Obama slept with Minister Wright.

Or if Obama is more black than he is white, or vice fucking versa, because inquiring stupid fucking dipshit American minds have no fucking true things to worry about and they just have to know, right fucking now.

And if that doesn't quell our thirst, we can pop our dumbed-down asses over to TMZ and see how Britney is doing.

Or we can go over to Drudge and circle jerk in anticipation over his next new bullshit story, just like the rest of our stupid fucking media. It really isn't much different than TMZ anyway.

I'm already in burn out mode with this political race (if you can't already tell). I know where my vote will go, and so should everyone else at this point. The rest is fucking background noise that will do nothing but distract. I have no clue why anyone is "undecided" at this point, because honestly I find those people to either be complete cowards or clueless twits who shouldn't be voting on anything or anyone in the first place. And if they ever become influenced by this background noise given to us by Drudge/TMZ along with Tweety, Pumpkinhead, Stephanopolis, and the rest of the mindless talking-heads, then we are truly lost in our society.

I leave you with a blogger I appreciate for his wit and sarcasm on this issue:

quote:

Barack Obama Shows Disrespect For Rural Americans Hotlist by Hunter Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 02:22:00 PM CDT NEWSCASTER BOB: Good evening, and welcome to the news. A disturbing revelation tonight, as reports indicate the abusive treatment of prisoners in United States custody was specifically endorsed at the highest levels of government. Vice President Richard Cheney, then Secretary of State Colin Powell, National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Attorney General John Ashcroft and CIA Director George Tenet specifically signed off on torture techniques like "waterboarding" that could be used on prisoners, including specific numbers of times some techniques could be used. This contradicts frequent statements by the administration that these torture techniques were not used, and may have legal ramifications as -- PUNDIT 1: Bob, I'm going to have to break in here. We have breaking news that Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama today turned down a cup of coffee, asking for orange juice instead. Could this be the gaffe that brings down the Obama campaign? Let's talk to our panel of interchangeable political experts. PUNDIT 2: This is remarkable, Interchangeable Pundit 1. Can a man be president if he turns down a cup of coffee? I think that shows a remarkable elitism -- just a shocking blunder, on his part. How will Obama connect with rural America if he doesn't show respect for them and their beverages? PUNDIT 3: I agree, Interchangeable Pundit 2. I mean, Obama is trying to court small town voters -- where does he think he is, the Ritz? How many of these people does he think have ever heard of something called "orange juice?" PUNDIT 1: Exactly, Pundit 3. I mean, you have to think he's just offended so many of these folks. I wrote a column last year about how much good, decent rural Americans like their morning coffee. These people don't know what "orange juice" is. They've never had it. To have some guy come in to their town and ask for "orange juice", like he was a Prussian king or something -- I mean, that's really not going to go down well with these old fashioned, everyday yokels. Really, really a blunder. It really shows his lack of respect for these small town Americans. * :: * NEWSCASTER BOB: ...Um, all right -- thank you pundits. Getting back... um... getting back to our top stories today, presidential candidate John McCain on the campaign trail today once again asserted ties between Iraq, Iran and al Qaeda that intelligence and military experts have repeatedly said do not exist. This was after several similar statements yesterday, and is seen by some as damaging to the credentials of the self-styled foreign policy expert. McCain has remained steadfast in his support of a war that has become overwhelmingly unpopular, and -- PUNDIT 1: Bob, I'm sorry -- we again have breaking news on the campaign trail. In a big blow to his campaign, it seems Barack Obama has not done well in a game of bowling. He bowled quite badly -- let's again to our panel of Interchangeable Pundits for their reactions on this important developing story. PUNDIT 2: A huge, huge blow to the Obama campaign. Obama is at huge risk of being seen as out of touch and elitist, here. I wrote a column about this just last year, about how important bowling is to rural Americans. Every small town hick in America knows how to bowl -- I really don't think these plaid-shirt-wearing tractor jockeys are going to be able to accept a president who does poorly at such a blue-collar, all American sport. It really smacks of elitism -- not hitting the pins, I just think that's an insult that all the half drunk rednecks out here in this part of the country, who really are looking for a president who understands them and their indoor sports. PUNDIT 3: Remarkable, yet again. Not wanting a cup of coffee, doing badly at a game of bowling -- this is the sort of stuff that these slackjawed hill people really look down upon. Obama really has to show he is in touch with these farm country cow tippers, that he respects them. He's not doing it, with blunders like this. "Oh," Obama says, "no coffee, thanks, just bring me the juice of a squeezed tropical fruit" -- I just don't know that that's going to play with these four-tooth hayseeds and shack dwellers. NEWSCASTER BOB: So Pundit 1, getting back to our original story, you don't think the war is a big story, in rural America, you think coffee and bowling scores are what these Americans want to hear about. PUNDIT 1: Absolutely, Bob. I wrote a column about this a few months ago, how these fine, upstanding turnip farmers are tired of hearing about the war, and just want a good cup of coffee and to go bowling. No matter how inbred they may be, you have to admire the simplicity of their way of life. Not elitist at all. PUNDIT 2: Totally agree. You have to take into account that rural Americans are a simple people. This coffee incident is really the kind of story that could resonate with these wholesome, beer swilling cow tippers. PUNDIT 3: I agree as well. Very much so. NEWSCASTER BOB: All right then, thank you pundits... In a related story tonight: one hundred years. That's how long one presidential candidate says troops may be in Iraq. Meanwhile, the death toll rises almost daily. We'll speak to several military experts tonight on whether the Iraq War is draining resources from what some call the "real" War On Terr-- PUNDIT 1: Bob, hold on, fresh breaking news here. It seems presidential candidate Barack Obama has stepped in it once again, by claiming that some small town Americans are "bitter." We're going to have a one hour breaking news special on this, right after this news program, but before that let's talk again to our political experts. PUNDIT 2: This is -- this is staggering, Pundit 1. Just devastating to the campaign. You have a regular guy like John McCain, who is really in touch with these halfbreed nine-fingered dirt pickers, who really feels their pain at their telecommunication companies having to answer to federal laws, or who are really, really alarmed that the Iraq War won't be allowed to continue indefinitely, or who just want to do their patriotic part for encouraging free trade by outsourcing their town's jobs and industries, and then you've got Obama over here claiming they're "bitter"? Wow. I mean, you have to marvel at the blunder. John McCain's spokesman immediately came out with a statement that everything is fine, and that these rural patriots are really quite pleased at the job losses -- if those job losses happened, which the spokesman denies. PUNDIT 3: I agree, this really helps John McCain. For Obama to claim these cowpie chuckers are bitter, or that these people who have lost their jobs have been losing hope -- well, that's just the gravest of elitist insults to these flyover country half-human Sears-shopping trailer park squatters. How dare he insult them like that, by calling them "bitter"? You know, in my last column I talked about these fine small town possum scrapers, and how valuable they are to the country. These people go to laundromats where you have to put the quarters in the machines yourself -- yourself! No joke, I'm not sure Obama can really relate to something like that. He's certainly never written a column on it, that's for sure. PUNDIT 1: Probably too busy drinking orange juice! Ha! But seriously, I agree with your agreement. I mean, between wanting orange juice, doing badly at a sport, and claiming people who have lost their jobs are bitter, I'm just not sure what demographic he's still trying to appeal to. Certainly not the fine roadkill-stew-for-dinner folks that make up our small towns and rural areas. They don't care about complicated things like wars and job flight, they care about coffee and bowling and leaders who understand how much they like wars and job flight. And laundromats. PUNDIT 2: I agree with both of your agreements with me. I wrote a column two weeks ago about these very same steak and potato halfwits, and what a treasure they were. Obama's losing them, by talking about things like jobs and orange juice. Huge mistake. PUNDIT 3: Indeed, if I could agree again with my agreement, I'm going to be writing a column next week about these corn-bred Godbillies. I'm not sure Obama could understand them as well as you and I do, having not written any columns about them. I think all you have to do is listen to country music -- the music of the people, I might add -- and you'd hear that these pickup driving dynamite-fishers aren't bitter in the least at the closing factories. If anything, they're grateful for the free time. NEWSCASTER BOB: Now, hold -- hold on a minute here. What you're basically saying, what you've been saying all night, in fact, is that our rural Americans are essentially too ignorant and uneducated to follow stories about the war, or torture, or the failing economy, or even their own lost jobs. Instead, they want to hear stories about bowling, coffee and whether or not someone said they might feel bitter. Don't you think that's a bit insulting to small town America -- that you're essentially calling them stupid, not able to grasp anything but the smallest and most trivial of stories? PUNDIT 2: Hmm, sounds like somebody hasn't been writing any columns. PUNDIT 3: I agree. War, torture, and the economy? What an elitist question. You know, you should visit these people sometime, you'd see how simple and upstanding they are. They do their own laundry, even -- it's inspiring, that's what it is. NEWSCASTER BOB: All right, I'm just going to let this drop, I think we really need to get back to real news now. Coming up, Vice President Cheney eats a baby. Will Bush pardon the baby for not being tender enough, or leave it to the courts to decide? Coming up, an interview with the baby's parents, who have apologized to the Vice President for their baby not tasting as delicious as the Vice President had expect-- PUNDIT 1: OH MY GOD, BOB, I HAVE TO BREAK IN HERE -- OBAMA JUST PUT A NICKEL IN THE TAKE-A-PENNY BOWL. THIS COULD BE IT, BOB, I'M NOT SURE THESE SUSPENDER-WEARING BEAN EATING SHEEP SODOMIZERS HAVE EVER SEEN THAT MUCH MONEY IN THEIR LIVES, HE MAY HAVE LOST THEM WITH THAT DISPLAY OF OSTENTATIOUS WEALTH. PUNDIT 2, WHAT DO YOU THINK? PUNDIT 2: UM, I CAN'T TALK RIGHT NOW, I'M ACHIEVING CLIMAX -- ONE SECOND -- ONE SECOND -- PUNDIT 3: GET ME HOME! CALL THE DRIVER, GET ME HOME RIGHT NOW! I HAVE TO WRITE A COLUMN! NEWSCASTER BOB: Um... OK... I'm being told we're going to take a quick break. When we come back: Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama. Why has he never eaten a baby? [end scene] http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/...1226/121/494151

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Reason being that guns are for self defense and we all see that crime rates go up as jobs are lost and people start running out of options.

thats unfortunate yes, but out of context. look at who he was speaking to.

is he defending the right of gun ownership or like others have said, position himself to appeal to gun owners? sure doesn't sound like it. or is he invoking pity for middle-class Americans who own guns? i'm definately going with the latter, given who his audience was.

quote:

Religion, as we see all through history, is more revered when times are tough because it gives people hope that better things are ahead.

rural people cling to their religion? for whatever reason other than their own personal faith, do you not see how condecending that is? again, look at who he was speaking to.

quote:

Also, what's so wrong with being bitter?

it's not about being bitter. it's about "the condescending dismissal of religious faith and gun-rights advocacy as caused by economic turbulence, and the broad assumption of xenophobia and bigotry among small-town Midwesterners." <--i wish that were mine.

and what about the ridiculously hypocritcal anti-trade crap he told the folks at the fundraiser?

quote:

This is yet another bullshit attack against Obama started by the Clinton supporters who are supporting a candidate with no chance of being nominated by a "by the people" process, unless the only people you are concerned with are the 700+ superdelegates.

you're blaming this on the Billary machine?

blame Neocons why don't you

at least own up to what he said if you support him. he did.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo at least own up to what he said if you support him. he did.

Indeed, let's. And let's provide the context this time too.

quote:

OBAMA: So, it depends on where you are, but I think it’s fair to say that the places where we are going to have to do the most work are the places where people are most cynical about government. The people are mis-appre…they’re misunderstanding why the demographics in our, in this contest have broken out as they are. Because everybody just ascribes it to ‘white working-class don’t wanna work — don’t wanna vote for the black guy.’ That’s…there were intimations of that in an article in the Sunday New York Times today - kind of implies that it’s sort of a race thing. Here’s how it is: in a lot of these communities in big industrial states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, people have been beaten down so long. They feel so betrayed by government that when they hear a pitch that is premised on not being cynical about government, then a part of them just doesn’t buy it. And when it’s delivered by — it’s true that when it’s delivered by a 46-year-old black man named Barack Obama, then that adds another layer of skepticism. But — so the questions you’re most likely to get about me, ‘Well, what is this guy going to do for me? What is the concrete thing?’ What they wanna hear is so we’ll give you talking points about what we’re proposing — to close tax loopholes, uh you know uh roll back the tax cuts for the top 1%, Obama’s gonna give tax breaks to uh middle-class folks and we’re gonna provide healthcare for every American. But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s not evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations. Um, now these are in some communities, you know. I think what you’ll find is, is that people of every background — there are gonna be a mix of people, you can go in the toughest neighborhoods, you know working-class lunch-pail folks, you’ll find Obama enthusiasts. And you can go into places where you think I’d be very strong and people will just be skeptical. The important thing is that you show up and you’re doing what you’re doing.

http://thepage.time.com/transcript-...draiser-sunday/


And in Indiana the next day he said:

quote:

"I said something that everybody knows is true," Obama told the Muncie crowd. "There are a whole bunch of folks in small towns in Pennsylvania and towns right here in Indiana and my hometown in Illinois who are bitter, angry. They feel like they've been left behind. They feel like nobody's paying attention to what they're going through. So I said, 'Well you know, when you're bitter, you turn to what you can count on.' So people, they vote about guns or they take comfort from their faith and their families and their communities. And they get mad about illegal immigrants who are coming over to this country. Or they get frustrated about how things have changed." "What is absolutely true is that people don't feel like they're being listened to. So they pray and they count on each other and they count on their families. You know this in your own lives. And what we need is a federal government that is actually paying attention. A government that is fighting for working people day in and day out making sure that we are trying to allow them to live out the American dream and that's what this campaign is about. ... We've got to get past the distractions of our politics and fight for each other, and that's why I'm running for president of the United States."

I have a hard time believing that there are people who take the quote in context and disagree with what he had to say. I'm glad he said what he did. For God's sake, he's the only politician with any courage it seems.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm sorry, I want a President who is willing and able to speak the truth even when it isn't always what makes us feel good about ourselves.

thats all well and good but he would have never, EVER, said that in rural Pennsylvania or "a lot of small towns in the Midwest" if his life depended on it, much less an POTUS election.

there's the real hypocrisy. who cares really what his adversaries say after the fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo thats unfortunate yes, but out of context. look at who he was speaking to. is he defending the right of gun ownership or like others have said, position himself to appeal to gun owners? sure doesn't sound like it. or is he invoking pity for middle-class Americans who own guns? i'm definately going with the latter, given who his audience was. rural people cling to their religion? for whatever reason other than their own personal faith, do you not see how condecending that is? again, look at who he was speaking to.

Oh, so it was because he was in San Francisco, that's the problem. Because his comments aren't repeated all over the country 24/7... You're really grasping for straws here, but sadly, since I'm so condescending to everyone...it'll probably work.

Hillary has some gall to play this up. And yes, I do blame her, she's out of the race mathematically and should get out instead of dragging this out longer so that the pundits can create drama over nothing. She's got a pretty dismal record on gun rights and Obama's shown quite a bit more religious conviction than she does, much to his demise considering the Rev. Wright thing.

Lebeziatnikov has it right, the people claim that they want an honest candidate, but they don't, since the only one they're being offered is being burnt at the stake every time someone twists his words (or those of someone close to him) to mean something that they didn't.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Oh, so it was because he was in San Francisco,

absolutely. never has he said anything remotely like that anywhere else. he sure as hell won't in the future either.

try putting what he said in context with his race speech. or don't, i wouldn't suggest it

it was a private fundraiser.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo absolutely. never has he said anything remotely like that anywhere else. he sure as hell won't in the future either. try putting what he said in context with his race speech. or don't, i wouldn't suggest it it was a private fundraiser.

He's already repeated it in Terre Haute and Muncie, Indiana. Look at the context - it isn't insulting in the least.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo absolutely. never has he said anything remotely like that anywhere else. he sure as hell won't in the future either. try putting what he said in context with his race speech. or don't, i wouldn't suggest it it was a private fundraiser.

Are you fucking kidding? Of course he won't repeat it the same way, because he's seen how morons all through the media have twisted it. He will address it, because we all know this is going to drag out for another 2 weeks, far longer than Hillary's "I parachuted out of the plane, guns blazing into oncoming sniper fire and a landing strip full of IEDs" story.

The bottom line is that no candidate possibly thinks that they're only addressing a regional audience anymore. Cable news coverage and more recently, Youtube, have proven that's not possible anymore.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul