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Originally posted by jerZ07002 why does everything turn into iraq with you?

Because as this thread makes clear. We have not learned from the past. What's wrong with pointing that out?

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Originally posted by Krypton Because as this thread makes clear. We have not learned from the past. What's wrong with pointing that out?

actually, taking land from the natives and no giving them much in return was a GOOD move for us. our entire existence as a nation is owed to stealing their land. whether it was ethnical is a separate issue. this is not even remotely the same issue.

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Originally posted by LazFX Yes, this is true to a point, but if such actions did not happen, would Man have advanced throughout the ages?

Maybe not in the 16th or 17th centuries. But we are in the 21st century we have the abilities to create anti-biotics and can send a man to the moon. Why can't we focus on engineering feats rather than fighting weaker people just for land?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 actually, taking land from the natives and no giving them much in return was a GOOD move for us. our entire existence as a nation is owed to stealing their land. whether it was ethnical is a separate issue. this is not even remotely the same issue.

Exactly, and we're still taking other people's land as conquerors. Nothing has changed....

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Originally posted by Krypton Exactly, and we're still taking other people's land as conquerors. Nothing has changed....

ok....except you missed the part about how taking the native's land was a very good thing for us. you can't even begin to argue that it wasn't because the life you know would not exist if it wasn't for that chain of events. tell me exactly the lesson we need to learn from pre 1900 americans taking away the native's land.

the second point, the war in iraq is not a war over land. the powers that be have their reasons, but one of those reasons is not to conquer iraq and make it the 51st state.

you can't draw a parallel anytime you want, there must actually be similarities.

IMO, the north american "natives" did far better then most conqured peoples through history.

The attrocity spoken of here was committed by persons working in residential schools and was an abuse of their power... it's not as though this was government policy. There was a class action law suit about this, the victims were compensated, it's a closed issue.

I'm with the Col. on the reserve issue. The Natives are given ample money to run their communities, free land, free health care, free homes, etc, and their band counsils piss it all away on personal items (band counsils do not need to account for how the funds they receive from the federal government are spent). We have a community right now with unsafe drinking water because equipment in their water treatment facility is disfunctional... they've received hundreds of millions of dollars over the past 3 years to fix it... all that money is gone and no work has been done on the plant. This is their problem, IMO, not ours.

The reserve system has created the problem... we gave them enough to want a western life and be incapable of their traditional life. So now they want to live like the rest of us but expect it to be given to them rather then working for it. Fuck that, we don't owe them anything.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 ok....except you missed the part about how taking the native's land was a very good thing for us. you can't even begin to argue that it wasn't because the life you know would not exist if it wasn't for that chain of events. tell me exactly the lesson we need to learn from pre 1900 americans taking away the native's land. the second point, the war in iraq is not a war over land. the powers that be have their reasons, but one of those reasons is not to conquer iraq and make it the 51st state. you can't draw a parallel anytime you want, there must actually be similarities.

Where did I ever say it wasn't good for us? Huh? Where? The west wouldn't have done it if it wasn't in their best interest.

The Iraq war is a war to secure Iraq's oil reserves. Yes, it very much is over their land. We have built a billion dollar embassy in the middle of Baghdad. We have military bases spread throughout the middle east from the stans of the east to turkey, qatar, IRAQ....

No wonder there is terrorism in the world. It's just too bad the natives of North America could not fight back like the Islamists in Iran, Lebanon, Iraq, and other countries. I hope they route the Western coalition right back to where they came from!! The Americans think they can "Westernize" the Middle East like they did the indians. NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

I very much draw parallels, sorry if you can't see that...

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Originally posted by Krypton Where did I ever say it wasn't good for us? Huh? Where? The west wouldn't have done it if it wasn't in their best interest.

you are implying that it was a bad thing. you said we didn't learn our lessons, which lessons were we supposed to learn? Shit, if anything, the lesson would be that taking over other people's lands is a good proposition if you kill enough of them so that can't fight back. europeans got exactly what they wanted and they made the best out of it. please provide some sort of lesson we should have learned from taking lands we wanted from the natives (aside from any ethical arguments).

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Originally posted by Krypton The Iraq war is a war to secure Iraq's oil reserves. Yes, it very much is over their land. We have built a billion dollar embassy in the middle of Baghdad. We have military bases spread throughout the middle east from the stans of the east to turkey, qatar, IRAQ....

except the iraqi people [at least some of them] will exploit and benefit from their own oil reserves. we aren't stealing their oil, regardless of what you think the iraqis will have a say in how that is handled. Further, building embassies is standard practice. that isn't really unusual. it's quite a tenuous argument to say that the iraq war was about land so america could put up a few military bases and an expensive embassy on leased land. we haven't taken anything from them, it's still iraqi land!

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Originally posted by Krypton No wonder there is terrorism in the world. It's just too bad the natives of North America could not fight back like the Islamists in Iran, Lebanon, Iraq, and other countries.

that's just stupid. the natives did fight back. that's why they were obliterated.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on May-01-2008 at 20:38

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Go fuck yourself, seriously.

Great rebuttal.......



I work hard for a living, and i pay my taxes. I fail to see any benefit for me or for the native population derived from the millions of dollars wasted on the band councils each year? North american Indians are the only conquered people in history that are still receiving compensation hundereds of years after their land was taken. Why the hell are we still paying for this? I don't see the american gov sending out reparation checks every month to every black family in america for enslaving their great grandfathers....

the best thing that could possibly happen for native americans (the canadian ones at least) is to cut them off their freebies and hand outs and their tax exempt status. otherwise we are just funding their own deliquancy and contributing to the sluminess of the reserves.... its hard to take pride in things that are given to you without having earned it.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I have 3 hobbies: gaming, DJing & correcting maladjusted fools on the internet.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN Yeah, I’d like to know what horrible, scarring incident in your childhood turned you into such an ignorant, intellectual-hating philistine?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 you are implying that it was a bad thing. you said we didn't learn our lessons, which lessons were we supposed to learn?

COLONIALISM

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except the iraqi people [at least some of them] will exploit and benefit from their own oil reserves. we aren't stealing their oil, regardless of what you think the iraqis will have a say in how that is handled. Further, building embassies is standard practice. that isn't really unusual. it's quite a tenuous argument to say that the iraq war was about land so america could put up a few military bases and an expensive embassy on leased land. we haven't taken anything from them, it's still iraqi land!

Wow, you actually think the Iraqi government represents the people of Iraq. That's such a joke. The government is corrupt and is a puppet of the coalition forces. How many embassies do you know cost over $1 billion to build? Hmmm, think about it...As long as the Americans stay in Iraq, there will always be a resistance. If I were Iraqi, I sure as hell would be in it too.

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that's just stupid. the natives did fight back. that's why they were obliterated.

Great point. The occupation is trying to obliterate all who oppose foreign occupation huh?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 that's just stupid. the natives did fight back. that's why they were obliterated.

Not really, the majority hadn't been exposed to diseases brought by the white man. So the more they were around them the more they came to disease. That is what obliterated them.

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Originally posted by Krypton COLONIALISM

your argument has zero legs to stand on. provide some sort of lesson to be learned. it appears you can't do that.

EDIT: i don't even know what your point is by saying colonialism. that doesn't mean anything when said without context. why don't you try making an argument where you support your conclusion with facts.

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Originally posted by Krypton Wow, you actually think the Iraqi government represents the people of Iraq. That's such a joke. The government is corrupt and is a puppet of the coalition forces. How many embassies do you know cost over $1 billion to build? Hmmm, think about it...As long as the Americans stay in Iraq, there will always be a resistance. If I were Iraqi, I sure as hell would be in it too.

i have no idea how much embassies cost to build and maintain, and i suspect you don't either. disregarding your irrelevant rant on a resistence and securing oil, you still haven't refuted the claim that america really isn't trying to steal iraqi land. at the end of the day, whether the iraqi government represents the entire iraqi population is irrelevant because the iraqi government, which will be made of iraqis, will control iraqi land and oil. whether they give favorable deals to americans isn't relevant either because the US will not be taking the oil without compensating some iraqis.

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Originally posted by Krypton Great point. The occupation is trying to obliterate all who oppose foreign occupation huh?

not really. the end goal isn't to permanently occupy iraqi. the idea behind taking the native lands was to keep and hold the native's land forever. the settlers never intended to give the land back. There will be a point in time when the US is no longer occupying iraqi. So, for arguments sake, if you want to say we occupying their land and have taken some sort of right to the land, that won't last because at some point it will revert back to total iraqi sovereignty.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on May-01-2008 at 21:51