quote:

Originally posted by ReclusNdangrmnt And when you fail at irony, we shall laugh, for it will be ironic.

no, that's not ironic brutus. pay attention or shoot yourself in the head.

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz excellent. all i'm trying to do is raise awareness so people will think twice before using the term irony . Granted, times have changed and the english language has undergone some painful transformations over the years. It's always important to go back to the roots in order to understand the real meaning of a word. (imo)

you're right, but i think the meaning indeed has changed much in the same way "nice" once meant something close to "naughty"


languages are spoken, and i feel that it's unnatural and maybe regressive to try to use literature as a basis for spoken language, which is the only true language. writing is another set of signs entirely

see but that's when the problems begin to arise in my opinion. Once people start using a term casually like irony, the meaning changes, the word becomes something of lesser importance, when it shouldn't.

You are right, sir. Languages are spoken, but when writing one should always consider the history. I don't know, it's probably the way I was taught to approach the english language.

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec languages are spoken, and i feel that it's unnatural and maybe regressive to try to use literature as a basis for spoken language

that is also a paradox in it's own way as Shakespeare himself wrote plays (spoken language as you said).

___________________
"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

haha i'm coming from a diachronic linguistics point of view that looks at language as the product of change over time.

i mean if we were all so conservative we'd still be speaking indo european


so many english words are bastardizations of other languages

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec so many english words are bastardizations of other languages

yes, mostly german

___________________
"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz it's probably the way I was taught to approach the english language.

But isn't the english language based on broken rules and adapted colloquialisms?

[/just being difficult]
But seriously, SO many words have lost/changed their meanings over the years in this crazy language.

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What?

yes, one of the reasons I love the English language as a whole. You basically have the ability to play along and adapt new and old terms aswell.

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

I guess the conversation would diverge into a lingua-franca discussion. not relevant though, the point is irony does not mean what many people think it means. Even I have used the term casually, so there's alot of space for debate as it is a never-ending colloquy.

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.”

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order”, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

quote:

Originally posted by elFreak

That song would be ironic if you expected Alanis to know what the definition of irony was!

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quote:

Originally posted by diggerz Most Beffiting, as I have seen many people use the term irony quite casually. Not trying to come off as arrogant, just wanted to throw this in so people would use this as a reference or tool.

If enough people use the word for a different meaning, then that meaning changes to fit what the majority think it means. Words aren't absolute facts of science that are meant to stay rigid. People made them up, and people commonly change the meaning words all the time.

Truth is irony has different meanings, and dictionaries today reflect that. To suggest that the "true" or "original" definition of the word irony should be used is like convincing everyone that horse carriages are the best means of transportation.

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