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Originally posted by The17sss We can spend all we want on research, but there's no guarantee's any of it will work to the degree oil does, so why cripple ourselves on oil before that happens? Have you heard about the windfarms in Rock Port, MO in the midwest? Unless you are on top of Mt. Everest, you're going to get sustained winds about 30% of the time at best. The other 70% of the time, you'd have to have another source of energy to power those turbines. There is no storage on the grid, and no way to store that kind of energy; there aren't batteries large enough. So this is the fatal flaw of wind energy. It requires fossil fuel backup of at least 90% of the installed capacity of whatever the windmills are, as confirmed by Britain's EON report. It's even more complicated than that because we can't predict when and how hard the wind will blow, and it causes havoc on a grid, because you can't ramp these sources up. conventional sources, coal, nuke, and gas, take a long time to ramp up and down, so basically they have to be running all the time to cover the intermittency of wind, and the bottom line is wind turbines produce no net CO2 reduction, even though that's basically the only reason they exist... theoretically. To me it's sad that people buy into it, and the people responsible for those kinds of things will never be held accountable... we will only be able to talk about their good intentions. We will never be able to talk about the failed results. Here's a similar analogy. Let's say that the hybrid automobile industry and all the related advocates succeeded in getting just half the people in LA driving them. They all have to plug in somewhere to recharge the batteries. It will cause a blackout or brownout immediately if that were the case. The point is, where does that power come from? Right now there is still a little bit of excess capacity in this country, but it's declining rapidly and wind power and all the other alternative energy isn't really replacing it because it all requires backup. So, it's just a campaign slogan IMO to say "we can't drill our way to lower prices". We absolutely CAN drill our way to lower prices. If we vastly increase the supply, the price will go down... simple. Why is it a short term solution when we have an incredible amount of untapped energy? So, awesome... the metro systems in cities is at an all time high. Great. In the meantime, our economy is being torn apart because of the high gas prices. When people aren't going anywhere, they aren't spending anything and the economy slows down. Like it or not, oil is the lifeblood of this economy right now.

LOL... All nonsense. Every 18 months, they double energy output, and half production costs. I would say we are the same point the personal computer was in the late 1980's, early 1990's. Still expensive, but not as expensive, with substantially higher processing speeds. What you are saying is like saying in 1990, "Computers are ridiculous because they are too expensive and aren't fast enough. We need more abacus's!!!!"

Tell that to T. Boone Pickens, an oil man with some real sense....





www.pickensplan.com/

This seems like PLENTY of power being generated by wind to me... And this is JUST IN THE STATE OF TEXAS, where I now live! Your theory, I'm sorry to say the17sss, is pure nonsense.

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Horse Hollow Wind Energy Center (735 MW) The Horse Hollow Wind Energy Center is the world's largest wind farm at 735.5 MW capacity. It consists of 291 GE Energy 1.5 megawatt wind turbines and 130 Siemens 2.3 megawatt wind turbines spread over nearly 47,000 acres (190 km²) of land in Taylor and Nolan Counties.[16] The first stage of the Horse Hollow Wind Energy Center consisted of 213 MW was completed in late 2005; phase two consisted of 223.5 MW was completed in the second quarter of 2006; and, phase three consisting of 299 megawatts, was completed in September 2006.[16] FPL Energy (through its subsidiaries) currently operates Horse Hollow Wind Energy Center. Sweetwater Wind Farm (585 MW) Construction of the Sweetwater Wind Farm has proceeded in five stages and some generating capacity is still being built. Sweetwater stage 4 employs 135 Mitsubishi 1.0 megawatt turbines and 46 Siemens 2.3 megawatt turbines. Its output is being sold to San Antonio’s CPS Energy under a 20-year purchase agreement. Construction of Sweetwater stage 5 began in February 2007, with completion expected by December 2007. Using 35 Siemens turbines, Sweetwater 5 will have a capacity of 80 MW.[17] Buffalo Gap Wind Farm (353 MW) Buffalo Gap 1 is a 120.6 MW wind farm located in Nolan and Taylor Counties, about 20 miles (30 km) south west of Abilene. The facility consists of 67 Vestas V-80 wind turbines, each rated at 1.8 MW. The wind farm was developed by SeaWest WindPower and is currently owned by AES Wind Generation. The power is sold to Direct Energy under a 15-year power purchase agreement.[18] Buffalo Gap 2 is a 232.5 MW expansion of the Buffalo Gap Wind Farm consisting of 155 GE wind turbines, each rated at 1.5 MW. The facility was developed by AES Wind Generation and went into commercial operation in June 2007. The power is sold to Direct Energy under a 10-year power purchase agreement.[18] King Mountain Wind Farm (278 MW) The King Mountain Wind Farm is a 278.2 MW wind farm, with 214 wind turbines in rows along the south-eastern and north-western edges of a mesa (tabletop mountain) surrounded by deep ravines.[19] Dust, sand and high temperatures place extraordinary demands on the wind turbines. Consequently, the design was modified for the desert-like conditions, providing additional cooling and protection against wind-blown sand. Annual electricity production is more than 0.75 TWh.[19] Roscoe Wind Farm (209 MW) The 209 megawatt (MW) Roscoe Wind Farm in Roscoe, Texas covers nearly 30,000 acres (120 km²) across three counties. It is Airtricity's third Texas project, and uses 209 1-MW Mitsubishi 1000A turbines. Airtricity's fourth Texas wind farm, the 126 MW Champion Wind Farm project, is located five miles (8 km) from the Roscoe site.[7]

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Last edited by Krypton on Jul-23-2008 at 01:37

Whatever dude... when something is actually proven to work as well as oil, I'll listen. In the meantime, I'd like our economy to run smoothly. T Boone Pickens invested 1 billion of his dollars into it... of course he's going to be rallying the troops to join in on wind, just the same as how Al Gore pushes people to invest in the same types of energy sources through the several companies he owns a stake in. It's not out of the goodness of their hearts, they are banking big time. Although, I do like Pickens' idea about using natural gas for our cars. GM makes 16 different types of cars that run on natural gas, none of which are available in the US which is fucking bullshit. I know we have assloads of natural gas here, and I'm a huge fan of it... and he was saying if we could offer natural gas at the pumps, we could reduce that 70% dependence on foreign oil 38%, which translates into $300 billion. Russia is using Gazprom to do it there and all over europe now, which is a good money making strategy for them since all those pipelines run from Russia.

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Originally posted by The17sss Whatever dude... when something is actually proven to work as well as oil, I'll listen.

Flashback to the 1800s

Whatever dude, when something is proven to work as well as whale blubber, I'll listen...till then I know whats lighting my street lamps.


I mean really, this bury your head in the sand attitude is ridiculous. If people like you would stop cock-blocking any and all efforts to reduce dependency on oil we'd probably be much further along than we are now...

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

... cockblocking... like the dems in congress cockblocking every opportunity for us to get at our own resources and help relieve the pressure?

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Originally posted by The17sss ... cockblocking... like the dems in congress cockblocking every opportunity for us to get at our own resources and help relieve the pressure?

It's already been factually demonstrated above that this will bring little to no relief whatsoever.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

It can't be factually demonstrated until the oil is pumped, the supply increases, and the prices don't come down. All the rest is politics man... people can manipulate the statistics and make up data to say whatever fits their agenda. BUt the basic principle of supply and demand holds. Even warren buffett, a bigtime democrat and pretty knowledgable econimic mind echoed the same statement.

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Originally posted by The17sss Whatever dude... when something is actually proven to work as well as oil, I'll listen. In the meantime, I'd like our economy to run smoothly. T Boone Pickens invested 1 billion of his dollars into it... of course he's going to be rallying the troops to join in on wind, just the same as how Al Gore pushes people to invest in the same types of energy sources through the several companies he owns a stake in. It's not out of the goodness of their hearts, they are banking big time. Although, I do like Pickens' idea about using natural gas for our cars. GM makes 16 different types of cars that run on natural gas, none of which are available in the US which is fucking bullshit. I know we have assloads of natural gas here, and I'm a huge fan of it... and he was saying if we could offer natural gas at the pumps, we could reduce that 70% dependence on foreign oil 38%, which translates into $300 billion. Russia is using Gazprom to do it there and all over europe now, which is a good money making strategy for them since all those pipelines run from Russia.

"Whatever dude". That's it?? I just PROVED to you wind power is an EXTREMELY viable source of energy. And all of you have to say is that Pickens and Gore are in it for the money!?!? What, the oil companies aren't!?!? This is HILARIOUS to say the least. What do we do when even ANWAR runs out of oil? Keep trying to find more oil!? Especially after we release that carbon into the atmosphere...GREAT for the environment...

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Originally posted by The17sss It can't be factually demonstrated until the oil is pumped, the supply increases, and the prices don't come down. All the rest is politics man... people can manipulate the statistics and make up data to say whatever fits their agenda. BUt the basic principle of supply and demand holds. Even warren buffett, a bigtime democrat and pretty knowledgable econimic mind echoed the same statement.

Actually it HAS been factual demonstrated by people far, far more knowledgeable on US oil reserves and production than you and I. If people can manipulate data and statistics to fit their agenda, what the fuck is the point of debating anything?

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Hypothetically, if the United States was able to produce its entire demand of 21 million barrels per day (3.3×106 m3/d) without resorting to foreign imports, existing US reserves would last only three years at the current rate of consumption.

You're saying this is fuzzy math and that you know that we have far greater oil reserves than the best experts from independent agencies can predict? The SUPPLY will not increase enough to make any meaningful dent in oil prices or reduce our enormous dependence on imported oil. This is fact. I'm quite certain that the EIA is not making up statistics and pulling data out of thin air to fit an agenda.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Krypton "Whatever dude". That's it?? I just PROVED to you wind power is an EXTREMELY viable source of energy. And all of you have to say is that Pickens and Gore are in it for the money!?!? What, the oil companies aren't!?!? This is HILARIOUS to say the least. What do we do when even ANWAR runs out of oil? Keep trying to find more oil!? Especially after we release that carbon into the atmosphere...GREAT for the environment...

Jesus fucking Christ! You didn't PROVE anything to me. Again, as it happens many times, when I see zero progress is going to be made in me opening up someone else's eyes to the other perspective, and I know the other person's perspective will not make a dent on me, I choose not to continue to beat my head against the wall. It doesn't mean I've been proven wrong or that I can't muster the intellect or research. And if someone chooses to stop debating with you, it doesn't mean you're victorious as you love to claim. You have more stamina to argue than anyone I've ever seen, and sometimes people just don't want to fucking continue... if that spells victory to you, then fine. I was on another tangent when I started talking about Pickens and Gore by the way. I never even said oil companies aren't in it for the money... obviously they are. And we have more than just ANWAR... we have the OCS and the fucking shale, and the goddamn massive deposit just discovered in the Dakotas. PLENTY FOR DECADES!

And as for the carbon, I honesly don't give a fuck because I don't buy into the hype. Just yesterday, for example, I read a story about the APS (American Physical Society), 50,000 members strong of physicists, about their scientist Lord Monckton:

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"Lord Monckton mathematically proved in his paper there is no climate crisis at all. He uses 30 equations to prove that the computer models used by the UN's climate panel were preprogrammed with overstated values for the three variables whose product is climate sensitivity, i.e., temperature increase in response to the greenhouse gas increase. This resulted in a 500 to 2,000% overstatement of CO2's affect on temperature in the UN's latest assessment report." In other words, the UN models were wrong. These models were programmed to give fundamentally fraudulent information to scare people into acting. Here are a few of the facts published by Lord Monckton, who, by the way, challenged Al Gore to numerous debates. Gore refuses. Gore will not debate this with anybody. Continued: "The UN's 2007 climate summary overstated CO2's impact on temperature by 500 to 2,000%. CO2 enrichment will add little more than one degree Fahrenheit (.6 degrees centigrade) to the global mean surface temperature by 2100. That's infinitesimal. None of the three key variables whose product is climate sensitivity can be measured directly. The UN's values for these three key variables are taken from only four published papers, not 2500 papers. The UN's values for each of the three variables and hence for climate sensitivity are overstated. Global warming halted ten years ago. Surface temperature has been falling for seven years," which have documented with satellite temperature charts. "Not one of the computer models relied on by the UN predicted so long and rapid a cooling. The UN inserted a table into the scientists' draft overstating the effect of ice melt by 1,000%. It was proved 50 years ago that predicting climate more than two weeks ahead is impossible. "Mars, Jupiter, Neptune's largest moon, and Pluto warmed at the same time as Earth warmed. The only common factor is the sun. In the past 70 years the sun was more active than almost any other time in the last 11,400 years, based on a number of research data of things on Earth." Lord Monckton has proven what anybody with any common sense instinctively has known and understood for 19 to 20 years. This piece appeared July the 16th at DailyTech.com. It's "The Myth of Consensus Explodes," and there's another piece at ScienceandPublicPolicy.org featuring Lord Monckton and his work. Ironic that our very good friends at Der Spiegel, the German news magazine, explained earlier this month why the Persian Gulf states are switching to coal. Did you know that they are? This is fascinating. The Persian Gulf states are switching to coal to power their own power plants. Now, I might be saying, "Why the hell they doing that? They're sitting there on an ocean of oil." Well, with the prices of crude skyrocketing, the oil sheiks have determined it makes more sense to sell it than to use it. So they're turning to coal for their own energy needs to the detriment of the climate. Demand for coal plants is growing rapidly across the globe as the price of oil skyrockets and people are using it less. So it is ironic, expensive oil means more of that dirty coal is going to be used. It's ironic that the environmentalist dream of driving up the price of oil to make alternatives more attractive ends up making coal more attractive.

Basically every time your position is completely debunked as totally fucking retarded you head for the locker room. Understood.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Clovis You're saying this is fuzzy math and that you know that we have far greater oil reserves than the best experts from independent agencies can predict? The SUPPLY will not increase enough to make any meaningful dent in oil prices or reduce our enormous dependence on imported oil. This is fact. I'm quite certain that the EIA is not making up statistics and pulling data out of thin air to fit an agenda.

This is what I'm talking about. The EIA also states that "At a time when U.S. crude oil production has fallen 40 percent in the past 25 years, 75 billion barrels of oil have been declared off-limits. That would be enough to replace every barrel of non-North American imports (oil trade with Canada and Mexico is a net economic and national security plus) for 22 years. That’s nearly a quarter-century of energy independence." That does not include the 3 to 4.3 billion barrels just found in the Dakotas and Montana, according to a U.S. Geological Survey Assessment (largest deposit found outside of Alaska). Don't forget about the 75 trillion cubic feet of natural gas that is off limits. Must be horse shit though, if it doesn't line up with your wikipidia article.

It's big picture common sense. Why is this so hard to understand? Boosting domestic oil and energy production would start a series of effects for our economy that reach much farther than the gas pump. We would buy less of our oil from abroad, which would cut into the trade deficit. That would strengthen the dollar, which would then cut the price of oil even further. Food prices would stabilize. The boom in the energy industry would add good-paying jobs to the economy, which would boost retail sales as well. It could help take the edge off the credit crunch in the long run as people would have less need of credit.

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Originally posted by Clovis Basically every time your position is completely debunked as totally fucking retarded you head for the locker room. Understood.

No, it's called Murphy's Law... you can only argue with an idoit for so long before it becomes difficult to figure out who the idiot is. I like to get out before that line becomes too blurred when I'm obviously not making a dent. You love to debate, as you call it, but you are too stubborn to admit when you are wrong and don't ever, even in the slighest way, stray from what you believe is true at the beginning of the "debate"