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Originally posted by jerZ07002 that wasn't an attack on your credibility (there is no way i could know whether you are credible), it was a question of whether you have knowledge of the facts of the past.

In the future, don't worry about what I know. Your argument should stand by itself. I consider it just irrelevant to the conversation.

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only if you let it. say by letting Baghdad fall like Saigon? history, Krypton. get some.

Let's see. We respect Vietnam's and Iraq's national sovereignty and self-determination...Hmmm...There would be no fall of Saigon or Baghdad to worry about. More importantly, MILLIONS OF LIVES SAVED...When we sponsor currupt right-wing regimes, we become entangled by our obligation to prop it up. I very much believe George Washington when he said, "...no entangling alliances." But I'm not surprised. As the House Judiciary Committee's Hearing on Executive Power and Its Constitutional Limitations demonstrates the blatant disregard for liberal democratic and constitutional foundations of this country.

But I digress...Vietnam the new China! Bravo! I'm glad for the success Vietnam has worked toward. This just shows that moderation is the best policy, whether left wing or right wing. I applaud their free market reforms!

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Originally posted by Krypton In the future, don't worry about what I know. Your argument should stand by itself. I consider it just irrelevant to the conversation.

please bro, you draw comparisons where they do not exist - you try to compare every situation to the iraq war.

the US entered the vietnam war with the approval of a government that was being threatened by insurrgency groups and the north. to add to that, the war was a proxy between the US and the USSR. how are those circumstances similar to the iraq war? while unpopular, the vietnam was was not a unilateral invasion of a country without any justification.

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Originally posted by Krypton But I digress...Vietnam the new China! Bravo! I'm glad for the success Vietnam has worked toward. This just shows that moderation is the best policy, whether left wing or right wing. I applaud their free market reforms!

you miss the point again. the point, and irony, of the article is that american companies want to move into vietnam for the lack of free markets. companies like the rigidity and control that the vietnamese government has over the market.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 please bro, you draw comparisons where they do not exist - you try to compare every situation to the iraq war. the US entered the vietnam war with the approval of a government that was being threatened by insurrgency groups and the north. to add to that, the war was a proxy between the US and the USSR. how are those circumstances similar to the iraq war? while unpopular, the vietnam was was not a unilateral invasion of a country without any justification.

I would disagree with 75% of what you just said, but I don't want to hi-jack this thread.

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you miss the point again. the point, and irony, of the article is that american companies want to move into vietnam for the lack of free markets. companies like the rigidity and control that the vietnamese government has over the market.

Vietnam's economy is more of a socialist-oriented market economy. I say let them be. I believe that free markets ultimately lead to a moderating government. I would say, what Doi Moi did was a good thing...

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In 1986 Vietnam launched a political and economic renewal campaign (Doi Moi) that introduced reforms intended to facilitate the transition from a centralized economy to a “socialist-oriented market economy.” Doi Moi combined government planning with free-market incentives and encouraged the establishment of private businesses and foreign investment, including foreign-owned enterprises. By the late 1990s, the success of the business and agricultural reforms ushered in under Doi Moi was evident. More than 30,000 private businesses had been created, and the economy was growing at an annual rate of more than 7 percent, and poverty was nearly halved.

There have been very good market oriented reforms. They've even opened up a stock exchange, plus an OTC exchange to partially privatize state-owned enterprises. There are hundreds of the thousands of private businesses. Yes, the government has a strong hand. AND? I respect their self-determination. They are no threat to my country or to world peace.

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Originally posted by Krypton I would disagree with 75% of what you just said, but I don't want to hi-jack this thread.

that would make you 75% wrong.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 that would make you 75% wrong.

HAHA! You wish!

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Originally posted by Krypton Let's see. We respect Vietnam's and Iraq's national sovereignty and self-determination...Hmmm...There would be no fall of Saigon or Baghdad to worry about. More importantly, MILLIONS OF LIVES SAVED. But I digress...Vietnam the new China! Bravo! I'm glad for the success Vietnam has worked toward. This just shows that moderation is the best policy, whether left wing or right wing. I applaud their free market reforms!

jeeezus christmas dude, you still dont get it.

do you know exactly what the NVA did after they swept south into Vietnam. then what they did in Cambodia? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS DIED. MILLIONS OF REFUGEES.

it took them a decade, a war that cost a million lives, and help from every Western democracy in the world for us to be able to buy a pair of Hanes underwear today they paid a 13 year old girl 10 cents an hour to make yesterday.

really, how more well off are they now? they're the "cheap China" apparently (a step up from Rwanda i suppose) and at what cost?

funny how you can't puke up some George Washington about South Korea can you? ass

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Originally posted by Q5echo jeeezus christmas dude, you still dont get it. do you know exactly what the NVA did after they swept south into Vietnam. then what they did in Cambodia? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS DIED. MILLIONS OF REFUGEES. it took them a decade, a war that cost a million lives, and help from every Western democracy in the world for us to be able to buy a pair of Hanes underwear today they paid a 13 year old girl 10 cents an hour to make yesterday. really, how more well off are they now? they're the "cheap China" apparently (a step up from Rwanda i suppose) and at what cost? funny how you can't puke up some George Washington about South Korea can you? ass

LOL! But the Capitalist forces were so humane in their war fighting...with Agent Orange and all...Johnson is just oh so innocent isn't he? Does the Mai Lai Massacre ring a bell? Just as long as the corrupt government we prop up is right wing, correct?

I would also say the Korean War was part of the aftermath of post-World War II occupation of Japanese-controlled Korea. Vietnam is a completely different case.

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Originally posted by Krypton LOL! But the Capitalist forces were so humane in their war fighting.

ahh yes. when faced with reality Krypton changes up with another moral equivalency argument. a slider so to speak

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I would also say the Korean War was part of the aftermath of post-World War II occupation of Japanese-controlled Korea.

no one gives a f**k about what it was "part of".

did we fight and die there? did we give up? are they today what sacrifices we made yesterday?

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Vietnam is a completely different case.

because South Korea doesn't fit your narrow worldview thats why.

Last edited by Q5echo on Jul-27-2008 at 06:06

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Originally posted by Q5echo ahh yes. when faced with reality Krypton changes up with another moral equivalency argument. a slider so to speak

Nope! You always give a blank check to Capitalist aggression! America can do no wrong in your opinion..

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no one gives a f**k about what it was "part of". did we fight and die there? did we give up? are they today what sacrifices we made yesterday?

Correction, YOU don't give a f**k. Historical contexts do matter.

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it doesn't fit your narrow worldview that why.

narrow world view... What's yours? Open-minded peace?

Funny you basically call me narrow minded. I was once a hawkish conservative such as yourself, until I saw past the pitiful bullshit of past and present right wing war hawks. It's called critical thinking!

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Originally posted by Q5echo jeeezus christmas dude, you still dont get it. do you know exactly what the NVA did after they swept south into Vietnam. then what they did in Cambodia? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS DIED. MILLIONS OF REFUGEES. it took them a decade, a war that cost a million lives, and help from every Western democracy in the world for us to be able to buy a pair of Hanes underwear today they paid a 13 year old girl 10 cents an hour to make yesterday.

Ummm, I dont want to get into this heated discussion, but at least one point here needs to be addressed: say thanks to Vietnam for invading Cambodia and stopping the Pol Pot massacre, which could have been worse.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Ummm, I dont want to get into this heated discussion, but at least one point here needs to be addressed: say thanks to Vietnam for invading Cambodia and stopping the Pol Pot massacre, which could have been worse.

do you think any of that would have happened at the scale it did if we [America] had held South Vietnam? no it wouldn't.

there wouldn't have been the political vaccuum in the South that gave way to corrupt and, yes, murderous communist regime backed by the Soviets.

if we had at least held South Vietnam after 1975 there would have been somewhere for the millions of Vietnamese in Cambodia to flee to during the so-called Pol Pot Killing Fields. thats assuming Pol Pot would have gone ahead with his plan of dividing and conquering Cambodia with an American presence in Southeast Asia. instead Vietnamese refugees in Cambodia had no where to turn to with the communists takeover in South Vietnam. hell, that was probably reason enough for Pol Pot to do what he did knowing there were Soviet backed communists Vietnamese next door..speaking of refugees, we all know what happened to the existing Vietnamese in in South Vietnam after the fall of Saigon.

i'm not thanking anyone for anything that happened in Southeast Asia during that war. (except my dad) not the politicians in America not Vietnam not China, nobody. it was an enormous clusterfuck after we let the South fall. the Soviet backed communist government couldn't get their shit in one sock for years during their occupation of Cambodia and millions suffered greatly. it took Western democratic governments to reach out and try and stop the endless cycle of violence and despair there.