I wasn't taking about marijuana I was talking about drugs.

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quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I was thinking mostly of substances that are more physically addicting. I have no knowledge of the extent of heroin or cocaine addiction in the Netherlands or how it compares to the U.S.

Here is a brief list of facts: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm

http://skeptically.org/recdrugs/id16.html

And in general, U.S. vs. Europe: http://www.drugwarfacts.org/internat.htm

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Originally posted by Zild I wasn't taking about marijuana I was talking about drugs.

Okay. Then what was the point of bringing up the Netherlands? Most of the drugs that are illegal in the U.S. are also illegal there, especially the most addictive ones like coke and heroin.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Okay. Then what was the point of bringing up the Netherlands? Most of the drugs that are illegal in the U.S. are also illegal there, especially the most addictive ones like coke and heroin.

Because the Netherlands does have an uncharacteristically low rate of hard drug abuse that many see as directly correlating to their tradition of tolerance.

Their drug policies and effects of general social tolerance are far further reaching than just marijuana.

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Originally posted by RJT Because the Netherlands does have an uncharacteristically low rate of drug abuse.

My point is that if the drug policies of the two countries are essentially the same with regard to a certain substance -- say, heroin being outright illegal -- then if the usage rate of that substance is different between the two countries, then we have to look to something other than the drug policy to explain the statistics, since the drug policies with regard to that substance are no different.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles My point is that if the drug policies of the two countries are essentially the same with regard to a certain substance -- say, heroin being outright illegal -- then if the usage rate of that substance is different between the two countries, then we have to look to something other than the drug policy to explain the statistics, since the drug policies with regard to that substance are no different.

They are different though. You need to do a bit more homework.

Unless of course "it's illegal" or "it's legal" is really all you want to take into account here, which is in my mind far too short sighted a view to take.

There are major, major differences not only in the penalties for drug use, but also in how the two societies in general react towards various drug as well as addiction. To say "heroin is illegal in both countries, therefore we should expect the same results" seems ludicrous to me.

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Originally posted by RJT There are major, major differences not only in the penalties for drug use, but also in how the two societies in general react towards various drugs. To say "heroin is illegal in both countries, therefore they're the same" seems ludicrous to me.

Well, okay, you brought up the issue of social tolerance. If anything, social tolerance of addiction and lighter penalties for drug use would intuitively seem likely to increase rather than decrease its prevalence, since people would feel less shame and fear about using drugs or becoming addicted.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles My point is that if the drug policies of the two countries are essentially the same with regard to a certain substance -- say, heroin being outright illegal -- then if the usage rate of that substance is different between the two countries, then we have to look to something other than the drug policy to explain the statistics, since the drug policies with regard to that substance are no different.

They are definitely NOT the same. Yes it is illegal but there is a huge difference between the laws and the enforcement of those laws between the Dutch and ourselves.

Also like RJT said I think it is the culture of tolerance that keeps kids from getting into drugs as a form of rebellion in the first place.

___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

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quote:

Originally posted by Zild Also like RJT said I think it is the culture of tolerance that keeps kids from getting into drugs as a form of rebellion in the first place.

Do people really do drugs to "rebel?" That seems very uncommon to me; most people I meet who do drugs do them because they want to feel good (or not feel bad) or have fun.

I know drinking was a lot more fun when I wasn't supposed to be able to. Seriously though if you understand a little bit of psychology and you are truthful with yourself about your experiences I think it is easy to see that most people who try drugs do it because of peer pressure. They want people to think they're cool etc...

___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

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quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Well, okay, you brought up the issue of social tolerance. If anything, social tolerance of addiction and lighter penalties for drug use would intuitively seem likely to increase rather than decrease its prevalence, since people would feel less shame and fear about using drugs or becoming addicted.

First, we're not talking about social tolerance of addiction - we're talking about social tolerance of drug use on the grounds that it hurts no one other than the user.

To be honest, probably the best example of a country dealing with a heroin epidemic in an appropriate and proactive way is the UK. They treat heroin addiction as just that - a physical addiction, and through monitored use and intense, often state funded, counseling, they have one of the least high rates of relapse among first world, western nations.

Regardless, what I'm talking about has nothing to do with shame - it has to do with the mindset that in the U.S., drug users are criminals, whereas in a lot of the rest of the western world, drug users are either no different than those who have a drink to unwind, or they're addicts, deserving of the kinds of treatment that anyone with an addiction deserves.

The thing that perpetuates addiction in the U.S. above all else is jail time as opposed to treatment.

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That's what I'm saying too. I'm pretty sure that here in the US when law enforcement busts a heroin user all they see is a loser scum criminal where in other parts of the world they see a sick person.

I still stand by my opinion that middle school and high school kids do illegal things as a form of rebellion just like everything else they do is based around rebelling against the adult world. Unfortunately some of those kids get addicted and then because our society views them as scum they don't get the help they need.

___________________
I've never been able to eat a whole baby.
Kill the women. Eat the children.
It's just one of those days where you want to bend over everyone you know and kiss their ass goodbye with a big sideways boot.

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