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TranceAddict Forums > Local Scene Info / Discussion / EDM Event Listings > Canada > Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont. > The death of OPEC (about time)
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DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
I think it's becoming more and more accepted that the ongoing volatlitiy has been mainly due to speculators driving up the price...not because of supply, demand or even politics.

Who accepts that?

First of all, if speculators are driving up the price then they're doing it by driving up demand. There's no other way for anyone other than the supplier to drive up the price (except, I guess, the government, by taxing it).

I've always understood the high prices to be a combination of:

1) Artificially-limited production;
2) Taxes on oil and gas;
3) Other corporate taxes on the people producing it;
4) Extremely inefficient markets at the pumps (very difficult for consumers to "shop around");
5) Artificially-inflated demand by panicky idiots who think we're running out of oil, especially whenever there's some sort of natural disaster.


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Old Post Sep-12-2008 02:08  Canada
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MarkT
Automatic Static



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto

I'm pretty damn far from an authority on oil prices, lol...but I have been trying to wrap my head around the topic and reading up on it.

The question I'd honestly ask is: who DOESN'T accept that speculation has been a critical factor in the pricing volatility?

The debate seems to be to what degree speculation has contributed...not that it wasn't/isn't highly relevant. I think you'll be harder pressed than you think to find many who will say that $140+ was a reasonable price, purely determined by market fundamentals.

there's a ton of info (sure, much is opinion) out there, but here's a sample:

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/497056
quote:
Institutional investors caused the rapid rise and subsequent steep fall in oil prices in 2008, according to an independent report released by U.S. lawmakers yesterday.

The report, co-authored by hedge fund manager Michael Masters, said that from January to May index traders poured $60 billion (U.S.) into commodity markets, causing a big spike in oil prices.

When the U.S. Congress held hearings May to July about reining in speculation, traders pulled $39 billion from the market, the report stated.

Masters said his company paid for the report to help lawmakers as they consider new regulations for futures markets. But critics note that Masters' hedge fund invests in the auto and airline industries, which would benefit from lower oil prices.

Oil hit a record $147 a barrel in July, then started falling sharply until it reached $102 this week.

"The bottom line here is that with regard to commodities, money going in pushes prices up, money going out pushes prices down," Masters said.

The portfolio manager for Masters Capital Management based his analysis on data available to the public from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, the Energy Information Administration and other investment sources.

The study conclusion is not surprising. It echoes Masters' remarks at several congressional hearings this year about the impact of speculators in futures markets.

An influx of large index traders into commodities markets has been blamed by some for pushing up oil and food prices. Masters said institutional investors should be banned from all futures markets or be greatly restricted.

"I think they greatly distort the marketplace," Masters said.

Lawmakers unveiled his report on Capitol Hill to bolster their efforts to rein in what they believe is excessive speculation in oil markets. The Commodity Futures Trading Commission is to report to the U.S. Congress within days on the role speculators played in the oil market.

Meanwhile, in Vienna yesterday, the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries said it would trim overall output by more than 500,000 barrels a day by adhering closer to production quotas – a compromise to avoid a backlash from the biggest oil consumers and stop the rapid decline in oil prices.

Oil prices dipped to fresh five-month lows yesterday, falling 68 cents to settle at $102.58 a barrel after dropping as low as $101.36, the lowest since early April.

Also yesterday, one of Canada's more outspoken economists dramatically ratcheted downward his bullish forecasts on oil.

Jeff Rubin, chief economist of CIBC World Markets, said the slowing global economy means oil will not hit his previous target of $150 a barrel this year. He now predicts the annual average price will be $115 a barrel this year and about $130 in 2009. He dropped any reference to 2010, when his previous notes said it would hit $200.



http://www.globalresearch.ca/index....ext=va&aid=8878
"Perhaps 60% of today’s oil price is pure speculation’" is the article heading.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRp...T26543120080804
quote:
TOKYO, Aug 4 (Reuters) - Japan's new energy minister Toshihiro Nikai said on Monday that crude oil prices were at "abnormal" levels that even hurt oil producers in the Middle East.

"I think this is an abnormal surge in crude oil prices," said Nikai, 69, who was reappointed on Friday as the minister of economy, trade and industry, succeeding Akira Amari.

He told a group of reporters in an interview that Middle East oil producers told him earlier this year that they thought of $60-$70 a barrel as the limit for oil prices and that they too had been inconvenienced by the significant volatility in oil prices. (Reporting by Osamu Tsukimori)


I can't find it now, but I read another report earlier in the year which argued that market fundamentals provided for a price in the $80-85 range, with speculation being responsible for the price being much higher.


[[ LINK REMOVED ]]

quote:
Oil was at $50 a barrel in January 2007, then $75 a barrel in August 2007. Now at $130 or so a barrel, it is clear that oil pricing is speculative activity, having very little to do with physical supply and demand. An essential product—petroleum—is set by speculators operating on rumor, greed, and fear of wild predictions.


regardless of who this person is...it's the #s that are relevant. If there is no corresponding change in the balance of supply and demand, then such a radical upward trend in price has to be due to other factors, at least in part.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global...y/JE06Dj07.html
quote:
As much as 60% of today's crude oil price is pure speculation driven by large trader banks and hedge funds. It has nothing to do with the convenient myths of Peak Oil.


really, the sources are endless...but it is indeed a debate, with nothing being gospel. From what I've read, I'm inclined to agree that speculation, not supply and demand, is behind the volatility (for now).

Old Post Sep-12-2008 04:36  Canada
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DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe

It occurred to me a little earlier that by "speculators" you might very well have meant the finance page jerks going "OMG gas prices are going up $346/L tomorrow BUY NOW EVERYONE BUY EVERYTHING YOU CAN RIGHT NOW!!!!!". I just interpreted it as something else (never mind).

So, actually, we're both saying exactly the same thing. False alarm!


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Old Post Sep-12-2008 22:14  Canada
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MarkT
Automatic Static



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Toronto

quote:
Originally posted by DigiNut
It occurred to me a little earlier that by "speculators" you might very well have meant the finance page jerks going "OMG gas prices are going up $346/L tomorrow BUY NOW EVERYONE BUY EVERYTHING YOU CAN RIGHT NOW!!!!!". I just interpreted it as something else (never mind).

So, actually, we're both saying exactly the same thing. False alarm!


ha, indeed they are part of it.

but it's also actual speculators moving money in and out of the market. not the average joe...but hedge fund managers, large investment banks, etc.

If they move a fuckload of money in and out of the system, it has a very substantial impact on price, independent of legit market forces such as supply and demand.

Old Post Sep-12-2008 22:38  Canada
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DigiNut
You kids get off my lawn!



Registered: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto, Self-proclaimed Centre of the Universe

quote:
Originally posted by MarkT
If they move a fuckload of money in and out of the system, it has a very substantial impact on price, independent of legit market forces such as supply and demand.

Moving money into the system means buying the commodity, and moving money out means selling it... is this not the same as driving up or down demand?

It's one step removed from actual demand, but I think it still works on the same basic principle.


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Old Post Sep-12-2008 23:11  Canada
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Skipper
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: May 2002
Location:

With commodities, demand is generally considered to be of 2 types - consumption or investment.

I think most of the time, when the average joe talks about supply/demand of oil they are referring to consumption, but obviously both types of demand play a factor in the movement of oil prices.

Old Post Sep-13-2008 11:44  Canada
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Magnetonium
Dubstep = Douchestep



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: Port Burwell, Ontario, Canada



Who said that Saudi Arabia actually left OPEC? From what it seems, they just walked out, to make a statement. Thats all there's to it.


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Old Post Sep-13-2008 13:54  Canada
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