quote:

Originally posted by Akridrot Their ability to 'entertain a thought without accepting it. ' OR DENYING IT

fixed

I woke up this morning and I felt enlightened; changed.

I feel like a kid again, and I want to stay the same...

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Why is it that, when confronted with different points of view, some people tend to dismiss these new ideas so harshly that they're unable to believe someone like them could have come to a different conclusion on a specific issue?

All conscious organisms need to have faith in their own perception if they are to survive. If you cannot trust your own understanding of reality, how can you have any confidence of perpetuating it? On the purest level, an animal needs to trust its senses if it is to survive- to hunt, to avoid being hunted and so on.

Most intelligent people entertain ideas that deny the reliability of reality- the "brain in a vat" thought experiment, post-modernism, the artificiality of the sense as a coherent entity- but at the end of the day we don't really believe these ideas, else we would have no confidence in any of our actions. We are prepared to give ground only on inconsequential issues of perception- the more fundamental and important the belief, the more we cling to it.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

The idea that started this thread -- "everyone would choose a wad of money over a better society, no matter what he says he would do" -- is hardly a very fundamental belief.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The idea that started this thread -- "everyone would choose a wad of money over a better society, no matter what he says he would do" -- is hardly a very fundamental belief.

I suppose that depends on how money-driven the person in question is. I don't see why greed is any less a powerful force in people's behaviour than God.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I suppose that depends on how money-driven the person in question is. I don't see why greed is any less a powerful force in people's behaviour than God.

True. Plenty of people drop God and then replace him with money, and others worship both at once.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J All conscious organisms need to have faith in their own perception if they are to survive. If you cannot trust your own understanding of reality, how can you have any confidence of perpetuating it? On the purest level, an animal needs to trust its senses if it is to survive- to hunt, to avoid being hunted and so on.

I think that constantly challenging and expanding your perception only strengthens it. Instead of having only one way to understand reality, you can have many. Being able to look at the world through eyes other than your own is an extremely valuable tool. No condescension intended, but I feel sorry for those who can't.

quote:

Most intelligent people entertain ideas that deny the reliability of reality- the "brain in a vat" thought experiment, post-modernism, the artificiality of the sense as a coherent entity- but at the end of the day we don't really believe these ideas, else we would have no confidence in any of our actions.

Even so, why do you think many intelligent people do that in the first place? Why do you think many unintelligent people never do that?

quote:

We are prepared to give ground only on inconsequential issues of perception- the more fundamental and important the belief, the more we cling to it.

This isn't true. You might be speaking for yourself, but you are not speaking for me. I would like to give you some powerful examples but I changed my beliefs completely on some very personal things that were most certainly fundamental and important. I am not the same person I was years ago. This is true for many people: If you put the me of today in a separate body and put that body side by side with the me of 5 years ago, you would not find any similarities in their beliefs.

To be able to easily abandon our most fundamental and important beliefs and to be able to adapt to new ones sounds like a good thing to me. Isn't our species known for its ability to adapt to new environments and new ways of living? Why not to new beliefs and ways of thinking too?

___________________
"If she's old enough to crawl, she's already in position." -- Pedobear

quote:

Originally posted by Akridrot I think that constantly challenging and expanding your perception only strengthens it. Instead of having one point of view, you can have many. Instead of having only one way to understand reality, you can have many. Being able to look at the world through eyes other than your own is extremely valuable.

I think that's a human notion, not an animal one. There's a lot of conflict between what we as humans know and what as animals we still want to believe. That shows through in the big issues of mankind. One of the most commonly mentioned and most fundamentally impossible ambitions of mankind is "world peace"- the desire for unity of perspective. Conflict of belief is a big problem. I think that there's an animal desire is for certainty- what you see is real, what you think is correct, what you know is reliable. Because as humans we know it's not going to happen, we know that being able to consider other viewpoints is an invaluable trait, so we embrace it.

quote:

Even so, why do you think many intelligent people do that in the first place? Why do you think many unintelligent people never do that?

Various reasons. "Intelligence" is a can of worms waiting to be opened, so forgive me a few assumptions. They're far from simple ideas, which mean less intelligent people are not going to want/be able to think about them as much or are not going to encounter them. Also I think "intelligent" people tend to think about things more and think more closely and throughly when they do, which includes themselves. As such they tend to be more self-aware and so think about things like the workings of their mind and perception, which is an alley of thought which leads to epistomological and ontological concepts.

quote:

This isn't true. You might be speaking for yourself, but you are not speaking for me. I would like to give you some powerful examples but I changed my beliefs completely on some very personal things that were most certainly fundamental and important. I am not the same person I was years ago. If you put the me of today in a separate body and put that body side by side with the me of 5 years ago, you would not find any similarities in their beliefs.

Without knowing you, your beliefs, how they changed, why they changed and all the other specifics I can't say anything about this without making huge assumptions. How do you know that the deepest you've ever believed in something is the deepest anyone can believe anything? You might think your belief is powerful but it might pale in comparison to someone else's belief and you can never cut their head open and feel truly powerful belief. I don't have the answer to that. I suppose that's what this thread comes down to as much as anything- you cannot look beyond your own perception no matter how much you pretend you do. I cannot imagine having six limbs. It's impossible. You can't either. The physical experience of it. And yet countless millions of insects couldn't comprehend anything else even if they had the faculties to do so.

As Conrad put it:

"...It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence- that which makes its truth, its meaning- its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream, alone."

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

also we have to define 'intelligence'

i personally define it as something quite literal - the aptitude for deep understanding of an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Without knowing you, your beliefs, how they changed, why they changed and all the other specifics I can't say anything about this without making huge assumptions. How do you know that the deepest you've ever believed in something is the deepest anyone can believe anything? You might think your belief is powerful but it might pale in comparison to someone else's belief and you can never cut their head open and feel truly powerful belief. I don't have the answer to that. I suppose that's what this thread comes down to as much as anything- you cannot look beyond your own perception no matter how much you pretend you do. I cannot imagine having six limbs. It's impossible. You can't either. The physical experience of it. And yet countless millions of insects couldn't comprehend anything else even if they had the faculties to do so. As Conrad put it: "...It is impossible to convey the life-sensation of any given epoch of one's existence- that which makes its truth, its meaning- its subtle and penetrating essence. It is impossible. We live, as we dream, alone."

I know we're supposed to debate and all (or are we?), but I really enjoyed reading that part of your post.

One thing to add:
It might be possible to experience having six limbs (or a million): with the aid of an intense psychedelic/hallucinogen/dissociative. I'm thinking a k-hole dose of ketamine, 4th plateau DXM, heroic dose of shrooms, thumbprint of acid, a lungful of salvia held in for a minute, some ayahuasca, a bunch of DMT (king of holy shit did that really happen!?!?!? tripping), etc. Pick any one of those (you wouldn't ever be able to them all at once, haha). Add nitrous oxide if you dare.

If not, then I'm sure it doesn't matter, because I'm quite sure that I experienced being ripped apart, losing all sense of myself and meeting alien deities in the vast nothingness of space once. Not vaguely either, it was detailed beyond belief.

You sound like a cool guy, and I respect your opinions. I heartily recommend that you have at least one intense psychedelic experience in your life if you haven't (if you have, then I am sure you understand where I'm coming from here). I think you'd benefit from it -- I most certainly have. Won't knock you if that's not your thing. I don't force people to do what they don't want to do.

___________________
"If she's old enough to crawl, she's already in position." -- Pedobear

If there is one thing I learned from cheesy song titles produced by DJ Quicksilver, is that I should open my mind.

___________________
sempre contra a corrente do jogo