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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Hahaha, same here. This election cycle is really delivering the lol's.

As funny as it might be at first, it scares the shit out of me that people are so stupid they actually believe it - these are the people voting on the election that affects every person on this planet!

Forgive me George, perhaps I just haven't spent as much of my life living in a classroom as you. Explain Marxism to me a bit as you've learned it in your many years of higher learning. What did Marx say that would imply 100% effective income tax rate? Isn't that an extremist viewpoint if even a legitimate viewpoint at all? Furthermore, doesn't the entire concept of a "tax break imply that 1) the wealth originally belongs to the government to distribute/redistribute as they see fit, 2) reek of class warfare? I view taxes as a liability, not something I get some "break" from because of my oh so benevolent government.

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10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. 3. Abolition of all right of inheritance. 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. 5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. 6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. 8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country. 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.[5] According to the Communist Manifesto, all these were prior conditions for a transition from capitalism to communism (but Marx and Engels later expressed a desire to modernize this passage[6]).

Maybe I'm just crazy, but it seems like a legitimate question she asked, regardless of what the answer is. Nobody has said we're halfway to a Marxist style society yet (that I'm aware of), people are suggesting Marxist leanings which are illustrated by comments like "spreading the wealth" and the audio at the top of this thread. Laughing won't make all of us ig'nant folk go away.

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Originally posted by Shakka Forgive me George, perhaps I just haven't spent as much of my life living in a classroom as you. Explain Marxism to me a bit as you've learned it in your many years of higher learning. What did Marx say that would imply 100% effective income tax rate? Isn't that an extremist viewpoint if even a legitimate viewpoint at all? Furthermore, doesn't the entire concept of a "tax break imply that 1) the wealth originally belongs to the government to distribute/redistribute as they see fit, 2) reek of class warfare? I view taxes as a liability, not something I get some "break" from because of my oh so benevolent government.

i think obama's answer to joe the plumber was actually a mistatement. i don't believe obama really wants to redistribute the wealth, he wants to increase the burdens of government on those who can most afford to pay. that's not quite the same as redistributing the wealth. if obama is actually planning on giving a refundable tax credit (a tax credit for people who didn't pay taxes) as claimed by republicans, i'm 100% against that, and that would be a slight re-distribution of wealth. my distinction is that actual money received by the poor would be funded by taxed paid by the wealthy. if there is no refundable credit, it is not a re-distribution of wealth, rather a re-shuffling of the burdens of government.

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Originally posted by Shakka Maybe I'm just crazy, but it seems like a legitimate question she asked, regardless of what the answer is. Nobody has said we're halfway to a Marxist style society yet (that I'm aware of), people are suggesting Marxist leanings which are illustrated by comments like "spreading the wealth" and the audio at the top of this thread. Laughing won't make all of us ig'nant folk go away.

the question was loaded but not particularly difficult, and biden handled it fine by dismissing it. a simple no would have been fine. i also don't see anything wrong with obama not giving interviews to that station again. if a station was accusing mccain of being a senile old nutjob he'd have every right to decline to interview with that station.

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Originally posted by Shakka Forgive me George, perhaps I just haven't spent as much of my life living in a classroom as you. Explain Marxism to me a bit as you've learned it in your many years of higher learning. What did Marx say that would imply 100% effective income tax rate? Isn't that an extremist viewpoint if even a legitimate viewpoint at all?

All ownership of production would be in the hands of the state, meaning any profits made would be the property of the state. If all services are free, and basic commodities likewise, currency becomes irrelevant and you simply work for your right to access services/commodities. I'm not an expert on Marx (well, maybe compared to half of America I am?), but I know how Marxism is supposed to end up and that society wouldn't have the need for wages, you'd just go to work and get everything you need from the state (which I'm sure we'll both agree is a daft idea and one that would never work but hey ho).

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Furthermore, doesn't the entire concept of a "tax break imply that 1) the wealth originally belongs to the government to distribute/redistribute as they see fit, 2) reek of class warfare? I view taxes as a liability, not something I get some "break" from because of my oh so benevolent government.

1 - no
2 - no

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Maybe I'm just crazy, but it seems like a legitimate question she asked, regardless of what the answer is. Nobody has said we're halfway to a Marxist style society yet (that I'm aware of), people are suggesting Marxist leanings which are illustrated by comments like "spreading the wealth" and the audio at the top of this thread. Laughing won't make all of us ig'nant folk go away.

Obama's policies lean towards socialism in the most general of senses of the term. It is not Marxist. The only reason people are saying "Marxism" is petty opportunism and shows how immature America is as a political entity. OOOooOOOOOO Communism! Scary bastards! You're a Communist! It's like when kids at school say to each other "you're gay". As petty as politics can get in Europe, calling someone a socialist as an insult in order to alter people's perceptions would be greeted with "erm, I am a socialist, what's your point?". If they are Marxist they will say so and people will vote for them.

This whole "Marxist" accusation thing is just ridiculous from an outsider and looks incredibly immature (not to mention completely incorrect)

America went through decades of pure paranoia (and continues to do so in one way or another), it's just part of your culture. Most of that paranoia was aimed at Russia, and now Communism is something vilified in America even tho people don't understand it. Same's happening with Islam (Hussain Obama anyone?).

Socialism mean many things, one is Marxism, but another is what is practised all over the world through individual policies like free health care systems, free eduction systems, etc. None of that is evil and only increases the standard of living. Anyone opposed to raising the standard of living for the less well off, those who do not have the same opportunities as those born into money, should be fucking ashamed of themselves...

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Originally posted by Shakka Forgive me George, perhaps I just haven't spent as much of my life living in a classroom as you. Explain Marxism to me a bit as you've learned it in your many years of higher learning. What did Marx say that would imply 100% effective income tax rate? Isn't that an extremist viewpoint if even a legitimate viewpoint at all? Furthermore, doesn't the entire concept of a "tax break imply that 1) the wealth originally belongs to the government to distribute/redistribute as they see fit, 2) reek of class warfare? I view taxes as a liability, not something I get some "break" from because of my oh so benevolent government. Maybe I'm just crazy, but it seems like a legitimate question she asked, regardless of what the answer is. Nobody has said we're halfway to a Marxist style society yet (that I'm aware of), people are suggesting Marxist leanings which are illustrated by comments like "spreading the wealth" and the audio at the top of this thread. Laughing won't make all of us ig'nant folk go away.

What the hell does it mean to "lean Marxist" if you're not halfway to a Marxist style society? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Obama "leans capitalist"?

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Originally posted by George Smiley This whole "Marxist" accusation thing is just ridiculous from an outsider and looks incredibly immature (not to mention completely incorrect) America went through decades of pure paranoia (and continues to do so in one way or another), it's just part of your culture. Most of that paranoia was aimed at Russia, and now Communism is something vilified in America even tho people don't understand it. Same's happening with Islam (Hussain Obama anyone?). Socialism mean many things, one is Marxism, but another is what is practised all over the world through individual policies like free health care systems, free eduction systems, etc. None of that is evil and only increases the standard of living. Anyone opposed to raising the standard of living for the less well off, those who do not have the same opportunities as those born into money, should be fucking ashamed of themselves...

This is spot on - the fear-mongering may differ in tone, but it's all exactly the same sort of thing that Michelle Bachmann and the like are trying to promote.

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Originally posted by LatinLover Obama and Biden are used to interviews by MSNBC were they are treated like family members. When they get asked tough and valid questions they get angry

Just out of curiousity, have you actually watched her interview with McCain? You can watch below to see some of the tough questions offered below....



She should have put on her pom-poms before starting that one.

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"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

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Originally posted by Capitalizt Those were ridiculously loaded questions. It is obvious the reporter had an agenda. Oops! Who'd a thunk it? Her husband probably got those questions directly from the Mccain campaign. And anyway, it's not like the Obama is denying the station several more hard hitting interviews. There was only ONE more interview scheduled, with Joe Biden's wife. And after he was practically accused of being a marxist and supportive of vote fraud, no wonder he doesn't want his wife subjected to that nonsense.

No shit. Biden has tried to deliver his the message with good intentions but he has gaffed with his language. But I don't blame him for questioning the interviewer? Marxist, socialist Sweden?

I mean come on.

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"No offense, but you're stupid"

the most fundamental part of marx's socialism was the transfer of ownership and control of the 'means of production' to the workers that worked it. im sure we'll all agree that this isn't a likely outcome in the US

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Originally posted by George Smiley Obama's policies lean towards socialism in the most general of senses of the term. It is not Marxist. The only reason people are saying "Marxism" is petty opportunism and shows how immature America is as a political entity. OOOooOOOOOO Communism! Scary bastards! You're a Communist! It's like when kids at school say to each other "you're gay". As petty as politics can get in Europe, calling someone a socialist as an insult in order to alter people's perceptions would be greeted with "erm, I am a socialist, what's your point?". If they are Marxist they will say so and people will vote for them. This whole "Marxist" accusation thing is just ridiculous from an outsider and looks incredibly immature (not to mention completely incorrect) America went through decades of pure paranoia (and continues to do so in one way or another), it's just part of your culture. Most of that paranoia was aimed at Russia, and now Communism is something vilified in America even tho people don't understand it. Same's happening with Islam (Hussain Obama anyone?). Socialism mean many things, one is Marxism, but another is what is practised all over the world through individual policies like free health care systems, free eduction systems, etc. None of that is evil and only increases the standard of living. Anyone opposed to raising the standard of living for the less well off, those who do not have the same opportunities as those born into money, should be fucking ashamed of themselves...

absolutely right.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN the most fundamental part of marx's socialism was the transfer of ownership and control of the 'means of production' to the workers that worked it. im sure we'll all agree that this isn't a likely outcome in the US

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Originally posted by George Smiley It is not Marxist. The only reason people are saying "Marxism" is petty opportunism and shows how immature America is as a political entity. OOOooOOOOOO Communism! Scary bastards! You're a Communist! It's like when kids at school say to each other "you're gay". As petty as politics can get in Europe, calling someone a socialist as an insult in order to alter people's perceptions would be greeted with "erm, I am a socialist, what's your point?". If they are Marxist they will say so and people will vote for them. This whole "Marxist" accusation thing is just ridiculous from an outsider and looks incredibly immature (not to mention completely incorrect) America went through decades of pure paranoia (and continues to do so in one way or another), it's just part of your culture. Most of that paranoia was aimed at Russia, and now Communism is something vilified in America even tho people don't understand it. Same's happening with Islam (Hussain Obama anyone?). Socialism mean many things, one is Marxism, but another is what is practised all over the world through individual policies like free health care systems, free eduction systems, etc. None of that is evil and only increases the standard of living. Anyone opposed to raising the standard of living for the less well off, those who do not have the same opportunities as those born into money, should be fucking ashamed of themselves...

^^^ Agreed.

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