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Originally posted by Q5echo FYI, taken at face value, the Declaration of Independence limits those "pursuits" as only those endowed by man's Creator. obviously, taken at face value, gays fall outside those limits.

although i think gays should have the right to ruin their lives like heterosexuals by giving half of their shit to someone else, you make a very good point.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 although i think gays should have the right to ruin their lives like heterosexuals by giving half of their shit to someone else, you make a very good point.

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Originally posted by Q5echo fine, just stop quoting the Declaration of Independence. FYI, taken at face value, the Declaration of Independence limits those "pursuits" as only those endowed by man's Creator. obviously, taken at face value, gays fall outside those limits.

Nope won't stop quoting it when it relevant.

What Creator are we talking about? See that's the point. None is named on purpose. So you're homophobic Creator hypothesis is moot. Freedom of religion......No specific god is endorsed by the state. Additionally, it says, "All men are created equal." Gays included. Therefore, gays have a natural right to pursue happiness, so long as they do not infringe upon any other person's natural rights. Gay marriage neither infringes upon anyone else's rights, and therefore, should be a recognized legal right by the state. This is only just and fair.

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Originally posted by Q5echo FYI, taken at face value, the Declaration of Independence limits those "pursuits" as only those endowed by man's Creator. obviously, taken at face value, gays fall outside those limits.

Uh, what? Careful where you go with statements like that. Taken at face value, the DOI only mentions men so by that logic I guess we can exclude women as well. Because everybody knows documents like that were intended to be taken at face value.

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Originally posted by Krypton Nope won't stop quoting it when it relevant. What Creator are we talking about? See that's the point. None is named on purpose. So you're homophobic Creator hypothesis is moot. Freedom of religion......No specific god is endorsed by the state. Additionally, it says, "All men are created equal." Gays included. Therefore, gays have a natural right to pursue happiness, so long as they do not infringe upon any other person's natural rights. Gay marriage neither infringes upon anyone else's rights, and therefore, should be a recognized legal right by the state. This is only just and fair.

but isn't the declaration just a fancy speech? it doesn't have any binding authority does it?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but isn't the declaration just a fancy speech? it doesn't have any binding authority does it?

No, for our non Americans, the DOI was basically a letter to Britain declaring the colonies independence from British rule. This is why jerZ07002, a lawyer, gets his panties all tightened when Krypton uses it for legal arguments. The Constitution and Bill of Rights would more appropriately fit there.

This is all on Wikipedia you lazy bloke.

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Originally posted by Krypton Nope won't stop quoting it when it relevant.

It's not relevant!!

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Originally posted by Krypton What Creator are we talking about? See that's the point. None is named on purpose. So you're homophobic Creator hypothesis is moot. Freedom of religion......No specific god is endorsed by the state. Additionally, it says, "All men are created equal." Gays included. Therefore, gays have a natural right to pursue happiness, so long as they do not infringe upon any other person's natural rights. Gay marriage neither infringes upon anyone else's rights, and therefore, should be a recognized legal right by the state. This is only just and fair.

which god do you think all those puritans believed in? probably not a good that endorsed homosexual activities.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but isn't the declaration just a fancy speech? it doesn't have any binding authority does it?

Yes, it is just a declaration of independence. But it lays out the principles of human rights, which are self-evident (meaning the words explain themselves), of our natural rights which exist regardless of the law. I used the DOI because it's an important document which clearly demonstrates that ideal. Regardless of what source I use, self-evidently, all men are created equal, and as equal beings, they have a natural right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, and/or estate. As such, gays also have the natural right to pursue their own happiness, as long as they do not violate someone else's natural rights. The legal rights of gay marriage are not in line with the natural rights of gays wanting to marry.

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Originally posted by josh4 This is all on Wikipedia you lazy bloke.

that's me!!

why go to the trouble when there are so many intelligent gentleman in here who can provide me the info just as readily, and much briefer?

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Originally posted by josh4 Uh, what? Careful where you go with statements like that. Taken at face value, the DOI only mentions men so by that logic I guess we can exclude women as well. Because everybody knows documents like that were intended to be taken at face value.

i don't think he meant anything by saying "man." he was pointing out that the rights listed in the declaration are proclaimed to come from god. i would agree with Q that god, if he/she even gives a shit, likely didn't intend for homosexual activities considering god created an opposite sex that is necessary for procreation. that said, i'm not a really religious guy, and i don't use god as support for any argument, i just see his logic.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 It's not relevant!!

The document itself may be irrelevant. The principle of natural rights contained within it are not.

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which god do you think all those puritans believed in? probably not a good that endorsed homosexual activities.

The Founding Fathers were hardly Puritans. A Puritan would done everything in their power to establish an Oliver Cromwell type theocracy.

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