quote:

Originally posted by ******** The jews didn't like the Warsaw Ghetto why should the Palastinians. I think you are wrong though, I think that land for peace was a success seeing the number of attacks (such as suicide bombers) in Israel reduce, once Israel gets out of Palastine the reasons for injustice will be removed. Continuing the injustice will not pacify the militants. I could list the list of Israel trying, and all the attacks and counter attacks. How many times was Arafat bombed in his HQ's by Israeli missles?

etc. etc.

Look, I'm all for a controversal debate, but it's pointless if the oppnonet doesn't get his facts straight. And by that I mean the knowledge of the most recent history, chronoligcally, in order to understand today's stand-off.

Let's have a small history lesson then, shall we?

1991: Post Gulf War-, post first Intifada-, post Cold War-world, in which Bush Sr. decides to install a "new world order", in which the mid-east conflict needs to be resolved once and for all. Madrid conference.

1993: Historical peace agreement between Israel and Jordan. Beginning of the Oslo process which grants Gaza and the West Bank full autonomy and governance by their own leaders (the returning band of thugs from Tunis). 98% of the Palestinian population are NOT governed by Israel anymore. No Palestinian Terror as of yet.

1995: Rabin killed by Jewish settler. Peres as the logical successor skyrockets in all polls, which express the Israeli population's will to continue with the peace process. Although the symbolic figure is killed, the peace intiative remains as popular as ever.

1996: A series of Hamas Terror attacks kills dozens of innocents and mayn children on the Purim holiday in March. This is the first real wave of Islamist Terror attacks Israel has to face. As a consequence trust on the Palestinians is collapsing, granting Netanyahu his win in MAY on a silverplate.

1998: A period of relative calm is interrupted by several Hamas bombings occuring just about the time Netanyahu transfers Hebron to Palestinian authority.

July 2000: Barak decides to short-cut all peace talks and 1.) withdraws unilaterally from South Lebanon and 2.) organizes the CAMP DAVID II summit. Eight years ago practically all of the Palestinian demands are offered and are one signature away.

September 2000: The withdrawal is seen as a sign of Israeli weakness, the generous Camp David offer is responded with five year long wave of terror attacks, which kills up to 1.000 Israelis.

2005: Sharon does not relay on a Palestinian peace partner anymore but unilaterally eliminates all Israeli settelements in Gaza. Every single Israeli leave the Gaza strip.

2006: The unilateral withdrawal is followed by a civil war between Hamas and Fatah, Hamas' victory in elections, and Hamas' unprovoked capturing of Gilad Shalit. Hizbullah jumps on the bdanwagon and provokes the Second Lebanon War by abducting tweo Israeli soldiers.

2008: Daily rain of Kassam rockets from Gaza which reach deeper and deeper into israel's territory.


Now you tell me how Israeli concessions lead to peace or at least the calming down of the situation?
On the contrary, the tendency is crystal clear: The more you give, the more shit you receive. It's the same old fundamental probelm of not coping with Israel's existence in the first place. Based on this conviction, every concession is only further motivation for intensified armed struggle.

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant etc. etc.

I see you're completely enraptured with the idea of a blood thirsty Jew hating Palestinian barbarian which understands nothing but brutal suppression. Not even a smidgen of an attempt to understand why Palestinians resist in the first place. So why did the Palestinians reject the terms handed down to them? Did you ever even try to research that? Obviously there were reasons.

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quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I see you're completely enraptured with the idea of a blood thirsty Jew hating Palestinian barbarian which understands nothing but brutal suppression. Not even a smidgen of an attempt to understand why Palestinians resist in the first place. So why did the Palestinians reject the terms handed down to them? Did you ever even try to research that? Obviously there were reasons.

Well, your main mistake is to assume that it's "the" Palestinians who resist. The second that this "resistance" stems from socio-economic oppression.

The first Intifada (ca. 1987-1991) could indeed be seen as a natural uprising of an occupied people. You had frustrated and hopeless young men who spontaneously gathered and threw everything that was available at heavily armed occupying soldiers. Textbook resistance.

Today's terrorism is industrialized. It requires thorough planning and logistics and it feeds off medial incitement. It recruits systematically and educates and trains profesisonally. It is everything but "on impulse".

I believe that the average "Ahmed the Palestinian" wants to have a quiet life, work during the day and then come home and wipe some Humus plate with delicious pita bread in front of a mildly amusing game show. It's just that and entire generation has been poisoned by the previous "welfare" organizsation Hamas but also by the alledgly pragmatic Fatah gang. Never has any leadership even attempted to break down to the people that Israel will stay there for good. Never. Instead, the "victim" and "occupation" cards are played constantly while romantically fantasizing about the pre-1948 Palestine. It's a vicious cycle, as economic misery DOES support recruitment, which then leads to escalating violence, countermeasures by Israel and an even worse situation. But it's up to the Palestinians to finally call it a day and lay down these weapons. The Israeli mainstream as long ago accepted the fact that there will be two-states. Now is the Palestinians' turn.

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant Well, your main mistake is to assume that it's "the" Palestinians who resist. The second that this "resistance" stems from socio-economic oppression. The first Intifada (ca. 1987-1991) could indeed be seen as a natural uprising of an occupied people. You had frustrated and hopeless young men who spontaneously gathered and threw everything that was available at heavily armed occupying soldiers. Textbook resistance. Today's terrorism is industrialized. It requires thorough planning and logistics and it feeds off medial incitement. It recruits systematically and educates and trains profesisonally. It is everything but "on impulse". I believe that the average "Ahmed the Palestinian" wants to have a quiet life, work during the day and then come home and wipe some Humus plate with delicious pita bread in front of a mildly amusing game show. It's just that and entire generation has been poisoned by the previous "welfare" organizsation Hamas but also by the alledgly pragmatic Fatah gang. Never has any leadership even attempted to break down to the people that Israel will stay there for good. Never. Instead, the "victim" and "occupation" cards are played constantly while romantically fantasizing about the pre-1948 Palestine. It's a vicious cycle, as economic misery DOES support recruitment, which then leads to escalating violence, countermeasures by Israel and an even worse situation. But it's up to the Palestinians to finally call it a day and lay down these weapons. The Israeli mainstream as long ago accepted the fact that there will be two-states. Now is the Palestinians' turn.

Industrialized terrorism? Tell me, what happens when the majority of the men are unemployed, in poverty, and witnesses to the destruction of their society by a foreign entity which encroaches on their nation's sovereignty on a continuous basis? Industrialized terrorism? That's a good one m8...

So what your saying is it's up to the Palestinians to stop resisting, and accept Israeli peace terms? That'll never happen. The Palestinians refuse to be dictated to. You harp on about Hamas and while I am not praising them, the Israeli government is no less innocent than Hamas. In fact, Hamas has killed less Israelis than the IDF has killed of Palestinians, and yet, it's Hamas who are the terrorists. That's makes a lot of sense. What would have been nice is if Israel accepted the election of Hamas which was democratic in every sense of the word. I find it funny how the neocon Zionist believe ignoring and outcasting so-called "rogue regimes" is good foreign policy. I swear to God, if Israel can sign a peace treaty with Hamas of all people, there may be a chance of peace. But Israel must be willing to completely withdraw ALL settlements from Palestine and give Palestine their capital.

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quote:

Originally posted by ******** Do a priosner exchange and stop crying. Are palisitians who are interograted in Israel security sites visited by the red cross?

all Palestinians (including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. members that were directly responsible to inhumane suicide bombing attacks) that are imprisoned in israel, are kept in normal prisons. they can use phone, recieve\send mails, and even have family visits!
can you compare it to the barbaric way Hamas or Hizbulla treat israelis they capture?

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Best Album Ever:
* Infected Mushroom - B.P.Empire

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser all Palestinians (including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. members that were directly responsible to inhumane suicide bombing attacks) that are imprisoned in israel, are kept in normal prisons. they can use phone, recieve\send mails, and even have family visits! can you compare it to the barbaric way Hamas or Hizbulla treat israelis they capture?

No He Can't!

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

Oh yea, Israeli prisons are like the Four Seasons Hotels! Can't wait to be incarcerated myself...

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quote:

Originally posted by ******** You obviously misunderstood me, I didn't mean "take them" I meant oversee the issues such as territorial waters, taxation, etc.. for the palastinians rather than the israelis. then give them those powers when they have the system in place to conduct it.

monitoring and securing littorals and ports, taxation, ect.. thats taking them imo. especially taxation because that would invariably mean representation under Egyptian law wouldn't it?

anyways it's a silly request. Egypt bears no more responsibilities to Palestinians than what has been committed in the past by them voluntarily.

quote:

You are very wrong though, many arab states are willing to work with Palastine.

i'm very wrong? what the hell is this "Palestine" you're referring to? when has there ever been a Palestine belonging exclusively to Palestinians in relevant history? where is the fucking international mandate establishing a "Palestine" superceding the one that existed as a British territory a century ago?

are you talking about Palestinian territories? the ones established by the outcome of a pre-emptive war? if not i suggest you get your facts straight before telling me i'm wrong.

quote:

Far more than they are willing to work with Israel, your comments are not accurate.

REALLY? Camp David I-II, Oslo I-II, The Hebron Agreement, Geneva, Israel-Jordan Peace Agreement, Madrid Conference, Beirut Summit, Sharm el-Sheikh, blah blah blah means nothing to you? are you even aware of these agreements and proposals?

quote:

The Israelis have just been irresponsible dicks with how they have been treating the situation due to their control freaking and revenge mechanisms.

they're fighting for their VERY EXISTENCE here. AN EXISTENCE MANDATED BY THE UN!!!!!!!! they're trying not to die a random and violent death dude.

quote:

I personally think Israel should just let Gaza be, police the border and leave it at that.

r u serious? thats exactly what they're doing

quote:

Originally posted by ******** Actually occupiers arn't suppose to change the domestic laws only administer them. It is illegal by international law to change domestic laws during an occupation.

we aren't talking about occupiers right now, we're talking about Egypt and whatever hegemony you would like to see them impose from across the border into Gaza.

quote:

How is it silly? Would you like the country you have been at war with to administer, or a country you've been peaceful with for the last 50 years?

i have no idea what you're talking about.

quote:

Anything to get Israel disengaged and still have some type of oversight until they are ready for it. Eg. peaceful conditions where they can pay their government employees, and not get arrested, or eg the civil war between hamas and fatah etc.. to take away the partisan forces from the government itself.

you're not getting it. Israel has disengaged. they've been disengaged for almost three years now, yet the rockets keep flying.

quote:

Israel broke the rules of its own foundation anyway by illegal immigration - and broke the defined borders in war.

was that before or after the 6 day war? or is that not what you are referring to?

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It is best for both israel and palistine for Israel to disengage. It will stem hostilities.

again, youre about three years late with respect to the Gaza strip

quote:

Israel is not the victim right now.

so a few thousand rockets means nothing to you, is that how i understand it?

Palestine will never become an independent state if Hamas keeps it up. Best solution is to transfer the Arabs in Gaza and West Bank over to Jordan and Egypt. They're not Palestinians anyways - they're ARABS of the Levant. There's never been a Palestine controlled by so-called Palestinians, and at this rate there never will be.
You can try and call Israel a nazi-state all you want. The Nazis prosecuted Jews all across Europe, and were aiming to do the same in the rest of the world. the Arabs in Gaza and The West Bank won't be prosecuted if they move to another country.

If you really want to save the children of Gaza then go ahead and buy them all plane tickets to live with you and your family.

man wouldnt it have been nice if the 50-50 agreement was accepted and there was no 49 armstice which turned the land more like 77-23. that 23 percent is largely not palestian,if you look at even the west bank large sections are military only and Im pretty sure its gonna stay that way even if a so called "2 state solution" is reached.

Its apartheid, will pro Israelis accept this fact atleast? you can justify ur reasoning all u want, but the checkpoints and id cards qualify it as apartheid.

Hamas will never change their ideology, thats a shame, but man, this just adds fuel to the fire. its like 8 to 1 or 10 to 1 disproportionate responses...this is FUCKED UP. 10 to one. their not dumbasses either they know precisely how much collateral damage there will be for a planned attack.

i think Israeli-arabs(who have israeli citizenship) constitute over 20 percent of the population. they have a higher birth rate so it is expected for them to gain a larger foothold a few generation down the road. once they start getting more organized and elected within Israel and its politics, they will hopefully be able to make decisions that would benefit the arabs within israel(who are more or less second class citizens).

I see powershfts within Israel may happen, but a two state solution-call me a pessimist-doesnt look like its happening anytime soon.

you guys should check out jimmy carter-palestine..peace not apartheid

and Robert Fisk the journalist for the independent, based in Beirut, witnessed frontline israels medelling in the lebanese civil conflict(one point they had occupied like half the country or someshit)