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Originally posted by George Smiley You said you are "confident" that someone like Chavez would have thrown anyone who attempted a coup against him in jail. None of them did go to jail (he gave them all amnesty). So either you're claiming a coup never took place (hence nobody in jail for it) or you don't have a clue about Chavez and are in no position whatsoever to be making statements about him with "confidence"

another unsurprising leap by you.

From the little i've read about the coup attempt, rosales' involvement was supporting the self installed government AFTER the the removal of Chavez by the military leaders, and signing a document AFTER the ouster. I'm not sure that would result in jail anywhere in the western world.

Additionally, Chavez didn't give anyone amnesty. A strange supreme court ruling prohibited trials of the military leaders; a ruling which was later vacated. Other participants went into exile.

While Rosales may be an opponent, there is nothing that links Rosales directly to the removal of Chavez other than supporting those who removed him. That's hardly material participation.

Which characteristic of Chavez makes you think he is sympathetic to opponents? He has many more characteristics that lead people to believe he is the opposite, and he even says as much in his speeches.

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 another unsurprising leap by you. From the little i've read about the coup attempt, rosales' involvement was supporting the self installed government AFTER the the removal of Chavez by the military leaders, and signing a document AFTER the ouster. I'm not sure that would result in jail anywhere in the western world.

I'm pretty sure that would result in jail in every country in the world following a return to normality. Indeed, in times gone by (maybe not in America) collaborators would be shot...

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Additionally, Chavez didn't give anyone amnesty. A strange supreme court ruling prohibited trials of the military leaders; a ruling which was later vacated. Other participants went into exile.

Well we're both half right! He has offered amnesty to those who took part in the coup (see link here) but you are also right that the tribunal said the participants did not have to stand trial originally. However, a later tribunal ruled that the original decision was unconstitutional and that the government intended to prosecute. This led to the assassination of the state prosecutor just before he was about to bring charges against 400 people involved in the coup (see Wiki link), presumably by the "democratic" opposition. That's when they went into exile, but now Chavez is saying he'll grant them amnesty to help heal the rift in Venezuela

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there is nothing that links Rosales directly to the removal of Chavez other than supporting those who removed him.

That's actually quite funny!

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Which characteristic of Chavez makes you think he is sympathetic to opponents? He has many more characteristics that lead people to believe he is the opposite, and he even says as much in his speeches.

Well I don't think anyone is sympathetic to their political opponents! But Chavez' offer of amnesty is a fairly good start...?




Anyway, Rosales wasn't threatened with jail because of his involvement in the coup. Not sure if he was actually threatened with jail full stop, but they want to bring corruption charges against him due to the fact that he has in his bank more money than can be explained by his profession, and coupled with the fact that drug running and paramilitary activity has increased phenomenally in his state under his watch

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Originally posted by George Smiley BTW, go and ask your parents how they were made to feel about Allende on the original 9/11...I would be very interested to know whether they were convinced to hate him like Americans are no being convinced to hate Chavez...

PS, you forgot something...

I'm no fan of Chavez, but I'm inclined to agree with George in the context of this thread. The majority of attacks on Hugo stem not from a realistic grasp of things in Venezuela so much as kneejerk emotion to his personality.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm no fan of Chavez, but I'm inclined to agree with George in the context of this thread. The majority of attacks on Hugo stem not from a realistic grasp of things in Venezuela so much as kneejerk emotion to his personality.

i am not opposed to chavez insofar as he is a democratically elected president of venezuela. To the extent he wants to change the 'democratically elected' part I can't say that i'm a fan. Also, I'm not a fan of how he has confiscated property, which was never property of the venezuela (i.e., capital investments by foreign firms). I will admit, much of my distain for Chavez is linked to his personality traits (i.e., his outrageous comments, calling bush the devil (or something like that), calling for the destruction of this or that...). It's hard to like a man like that.

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Originally posted by George Smiley PS, you forgot something...

i'm not sure what you meant in that post, and i'm not inclined to do research to figure it out.

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Originally posted by George Smiley I'm pretty sure that would result in jail in every country in the world following a return to normality. Indeed, in times gone by (maybe not in America) collaborators would be shot...

shooting collaborators is a return to normality?

edit: furthermore, you're assuming that subsequent support equals collaboration. i don't share that view, and i think the majority would agree that it isn't collaboration to throw your support for someone after the fact.

as an example - would you characterize people who support the current iraqi government as collaborators in the overthrow of saddam hussein?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well we're both half right! He has offered amnesty to those who took part in the coup (see link here) but you are also right that the tribunal said the participants did not have to stand trial originally. However, a later tribunal ruled that the original decision was unconstitutional and that the government intended to prosecute. This led to the assassination of the state prosecutor just before he was about to bring charges against 400 people involved in the coup (see Wiki link), presumably by the "democratic" opposition. That's when they went into exile, but now Chavez is saying he'll grant them amnesty to help heal the rift in Venezuela

fair enough

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Originally posted by George Smiley That's actually quite funny!

i don't share that sentiment. provide some direct linkage.

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Originally posted by George Smiley Well I don't think anyone is sympathetic to their political opponents! But Chavez' offer of amnesty is a fairly good start...?

fair point

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Originally posted by George Smiley Anyway, Rosales wasn't threatened with jail because of his involvement in the coup. Not sure if he was actually threatened with jail full stop, but they want to bring corruption charges against him due to the fact that he has in his bank more money than can be explained by his profession, and coupled with the fact that drug running and paramilitary activity has increased phenomenally in his state under his watch

really, i believe you initially had this remark:

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Originally posted by George Smiley Why was Manuel Rosales threatened with jail? For his involvement in the 2002 coup? In any other country he already would be in jail!

while you tempered your response with a question mark, the clear implication of the response was that rosales was threatened with jail because of his involvement in the coup.

Not that it really matters because so long as Chavez wasn't threatening with jail for no reason, then it wouldn't be as objectionable to threaten someone with jail. Although, it is always suspect when the threats are made during an election, which is clearly meant to influence the results. Moreover, I'm always suspicious when someone is just threatened with jail as opposed to acutally being arrested.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Nov-29-2008 at 00:01

George, I dont understand how you can defend Chavez and then at the same time clash against Putin/Medvedev. I don't get it.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium George, I dont understand how you can defend Chavez and then at the same time clash against Putin/Medvedev. I don't get it.

so are you saying that putin/medvedev are nearly the same as chavez?

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 so are you saying that putin/medvedev are nearly the same as chavez?

No, but both of them get accused of similar things. I dont see Chavez as any better or worse than Putin. They are different, no doubt about them, facing similar problems.

For example, nationalizing of certain companies/industries is done both by Russia and Venezuela.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by jerZ07002 shooting collaborators is a return to normality?

Don't think I said that did I?

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edit: furthermore, you're assuming that subsequent support equals collaboration. i don't share that view, and i think the majority would agree that it isn't collaboration to throw your support for someone after the fact.

And you're assuming subsequent support full stop...

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i don't share that sentiment. provide some direct linkage.

I don't need to provide any sources you yourself said Rosales supported those who staged the coup! (Which is what I found amusing)

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really, i believe you initially had this remark: while you tempered your response with a question mark, the clear implication of the response was that rosales was threatened with jail because of his involvement in the coup.

Sometimes, nay practically all times, when somebody ends a sentence with a question mark it is to show that a question had been asked...

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Not that it really matters because so long as Chavez wasn't threatening with jail for no reason, then it wouldn't be as objectionable to threaten someone with jail. Although, it is always suspect when the threats are made during an election, which is clearly meant to influence the results. Moreover, I'm always suspicious when someone is just threatened with jail as opposed to acutally being arrested.

To be perfectly honest I don't think either of us have seen the direct quote from Chavez where he threatened Rosales with jail. For all we know it might have been for no reason or it might have been a comment about starting a criminal investigation that was taken out of context by the capitalist Venezuelan/American media?

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i'm not sure what you meant in that post, and i'm not inclined to do research to figure it out.

Simple question: How were Americans made to feel about Allende on the original 9/11 (1973). This is probably the number one reason I have taken an interest in Venezuela today because I can see direct parallels between what happened then with American involvement in Latin America and what's happening today. So I want to know how Americans were made to feel about Allende. Were they made to hate him like they're being made to hate Chavez?