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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN torture merely begets torture. good luck to american soldiers that are captured in the foreseeable future. half the shit that the VP got up to during his terms undermined everything that the US supposedly stands for.

please... even if we gave swedish massages and mineral baths to the detainees in prison, they would still cry that we were torturing them; it's part of their playbook to always claim mistreatment. And even if it was widely understood that we didn't torture anyone ever, those animals would still torture our soldiers by fiat of being American.

Last edited by The17sss on Dec-22-2008 at 16:31

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Originally posted by The17sss please... even if we gave swedish massages and mineral baths to the detainees in prison, they would still cry that we were torturing them; it's part of their playbook to always claim mistreatment. And even if it was widely understood that we didn't torutre anyone ever, those animals would still torture our soldiers by fiat of being American.

And that gives us free reign to compromise what we believe in?

I'm against torture for moral reasons, but that isn't the best argument in my opinion. It's simply not a reliable method of attaining information. It isn't. How can we justify compromising our values (that we're fighting to protect) when the compromise doesn't even yield valuable information?

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov And that gives us free reign to compromise what we believe in? I'm against torture for moral reasons, but that isn't the best argument in my opinion. It's simply not a reliable method of attaining information. It isn't. How can we justify compromising our values (that we're fighting to protect) when the compromise doesn't even yield valuable information?

free reign? No... of course not. But if you know you can get sensitive info that will undoubtedly save lives, and it's being held by some worthless dregg who has killed or tried to kill or plans on killing American soldiers, then I agree with it. The value not being compromised should be that of doing whatever is necessary to protect Americans/America's interests. Holding the moral high ground looks admirable, but sometimes admirability doesn't pay the bills if you know what I mean. When truly necessary, a la the ticking time bomb scenario, I'll take my chances on its reliability.

Last edited by The17sss on Dec-22-2008 at 16:49

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Originally posted by The17sss When truly necessary, a la the ticking time bomb scenario, I'll take my chances on its reliability.

This is rarely when its utilized though. We're not talking about Jack Bauer capturing henchmen in the act of placing a bomb in the middle of LA. We're talking about about an awful lot of hypothetical "what if" type scenarios where I'm simply not comfortable sacrificing what the United States stands for in the name of very UNRELIABLE information. If you can convince me the information gleaned through random torture procedures is indeed reliable and accurate, then I'll reconsider. But studies and such suggest exactly the opposite. Under duress, people will make up anything to make the torture stop.

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lol... Jack Bauer and henchmen. I think there is actually some overlap in our stance on the matter, even though it sounds like we are making opposite arguments.... because I don't care for the what-ifs either, and would only be for torture if there was a seriously high degree of certainty that the detainee was in fact holding needed information. I need to brush up on some studies, and not ones funded by fringe Left and Right wing groups.

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Originally posted by The17sss lol... Jack Bauer and henchmen. I think there is actually some overlap in our stance on the matter, even though it sounds like we are making opposite arguments.... because I don't care for the what-ifs either, and would only be for torture if there was a seriously high degree of certainty that the detainee was in fact holding needed information. I need to brush up on some studies, and not ones funded by fringe Left and Right wing groups.

Yeah, I understand the argument for why it could be needed, but it isn't a convincing one to me simply because the accuracy of the information produced is so problematic. If it was a sure thing that capping a guy in the knee would save an American baby, yeah, sure, let's do it. But the reality of the situation is that the information is probably not reliable and will have us wasting our time barking up the wrong tree. So then we have compromised our moral values AND created a classic "boy who cries wolf" situation where we no longer know what intelligence to trust.

The intelligence community needs reform, and torture is a quick fix - and a very unreliable one.

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Originally posted by The17sss please... even if we gave swedish massages and mineral baths to the detainees in prison, they would still cry that we were torturing them; it's part of their playbook to always claim mistreatment. And even if it was widely understood that we didn't torture anyone ever, those animals would still torture our soldiers by fiat of being American.

So because of your assumption that our enemies would torture our soldiers, that gives us the right to torture who we capture? I guess you haven't known about the hundreds of innocent people we have detained and used "enhanced interrogation techniques" on. Only to be released without charge after years of detention.

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Originally posted by The17sss lol... Jack Bauer and henchmen. I think there is actually some overlap in our stance on the matter, even though it sounds like we are making opposite arguments.... because I don't care for the what-ifs either, and would only be for torture if there was a seriously high degree of certainty that the detainee was in fact holding needed information. I need to brush up on some studies, and not ones funded by fringe Left and Right wing groups.

Why do you need a study to tell you what you already know? When you torture someone they will tell you whatever you want to hear. That makes for extremely poor intelligence as the information garnered in such a manner is almost always fallacious.

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Originally posted by Krypton So because of your assumption that our enemies would torture our soldiers, that gives us the right to torture who we capture? I guess you haven't known about the hundreds of innocent people we have detained and used "enhanced interrogation techniques" on. Only to be released without charge after years of detention.

No, I'm just saying that whether we torture or not, regardless of the circumstance, American's captured over there (middle east) will most likely get abused. I think if you look at the big picture, America is not at the top of the list for inhumanity.

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Originally posted by Zild Why do you need a study to tell you what you already know? When you torture someone they will tell you whatever you want to hear. That makes for extremely poor intelligence as the information garnered in such a manner is almost always fallacious.

Yeah I know man, I'm not looking to validate anything... I just want to update myself on the data because I haven't really read up on that subject in a while.

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Originally posted by The17sss America is not at the top of the list for inhumanity.

I think we're just saying that we shouldn't even be on the list, especially if there's no tangible benefit.

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