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Originally posted by The17sss As a conservative, yes... you do lose relevance if you agree to liberal principles. To do so diminishes one's core conservatism. As a conservative and a republican, it is clear to me that the reason the GOP is in such trouble is because it has abandoned its principles and tried to become more like the democrat party. It is obvious that this does not inspire the republican base, which is largely to the right of the center. Robertson is simply an opportunist doing what he can to get a seat at the table.

You're going to have to connect these dots for me then. How can it be opportunist for a conservative to purposely alienate other conservatives?

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I do think Obama has steered more right than I expected, but what's ironic is that he had to become more conservative to win.

I disagree with this. He ran a lot more liberal than his appointments suggest he might govern. It's true that we can't pass judgment until he starts passing laws, but you have to admit that he has been much more conservative thusfar than either the election or the state of today's political climate would logically indicate.

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Plus, and very importantly, do you realize that it is a huge strategy to have republicans in the fray at all times rather than have a Democrat supermajority? Because, with a Dem. supermajority, if anything goes wrong, all of the blame will get solely placed on their shoulders.

Perception in politics is reality. Whether the Republicans are included in the process or not, the Democrats will always be blamed for mistakes that occur under their supermajority. Including Republicans is not a political necessity - it is a gesture of good faith in bipartisanship. And it's an example of liberals moving to the center in order to cooperate (as you say they never do).

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McCain on the other hand, thought he had to become more liberal (if that's possible to do and still call himself a republican), and it backfired.

When? McCain didn't run as a moderate Republican... he ran as a Republican. He was far more conservative during the election in 2008 than he had been in the election in 2000. Palin is a pretty condemning indication of how far to the right McCain really ran. That's what backfired - he didn't do much at all to distance himself from the neo-conservatives currently in power.

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As for polls... I've also read polls that show a majority of people do not favor the bailouts and their tax dollars being squandered.

Polls always indicate that the majority is against spending public money - the purpose is more or less irrelevant.

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I don't pay attention to polls about "Obama optimism" when he hasn't served a day; much of that could simple be people hoping things get better regardless of who is in office. After some time passes, those polls will become relevant I think.

Agreed here.

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And, yes I do find it hard to believe that liberals move towards the center; people on the left try to get people to the right of them to move in their direction.

To be fair, reverse this and it is the conservative ideal. Of course both sides try to move the other - but in the end, I think it's something we can agree on that both sides have proven willing to move to the center in order to get things done (often at the disdain of the hardcore elements of their own party). McCain has done this (in the past), and Obama is doing it now. I think the difference here is that I don't think much of it when Obama does it, but you hate it when McCain does.

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A little unrelated, but I think Pat Robertson should be checked out by a Psychiatrist. Well, maybe not, something tells me he doesn't believe half the BS he spouts.

He's anti just about everything, I honestly can't believe he believes his own bull shit anymore...I wish I could point that out to his hundreds of thousands of followers who think he's some sort of prophet.

Sorry, I just saw the word, "Apocalypse" and immediately thought of this...



/yea, I'm twisted...

//twisted Firestarter....get it? hahhaahhaha....nm...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov You're going to have to connect these dots for me then. How can it be opportunist for a conservative to purposely alienate other conservatives?

He is being an opportunist by trying to curry favor with whoever happens to be in power at that particular time. If that means alienating other conservatives in his mind, then so be it... doesn't matter to him as long as he can continue to practice Utilitarianism.

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I disagree with this. He ran a lot more liberal than his appointments suggest he might govern. It's true that we can't pass judgment until he starts passing laws, but you have to admit that he has been much more conservative thusfar than either the election or the state of today's political climate would logically indicate.

Well, let's take into consideration that he hasn't started serving yet. I have to believe that his shift to the right is based solely on strategy and is merely the illusion of conservative behavior until he proves otherwise because when you look at his actual voting record (when he wasn't voting "present" ) you can see just how liberal it is.

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Perception in politics is reality. Whether the Republicans are included in the process or not, the Democrats will always be blamed for mistakes that occur under their supermajority. Including Republicans is not a political necessity - it is a gesture of good faith in bipartisanship. And it's an example of liberals moving to the center in order to cooperate (as you say they never do).

You're right... perception is definitey reality in politics. But I don't really believe any respectable percentage of either Democrats OR Republicans truly believe in bi-partisanship. It's just a catch phrase to make the constituents feel good and believe that people are working together for the good of everyone idealistically, when in reality most people on both sides are sharks with a personal or party driven agenda. Again, until legislation and/or voting proves otherwise, the appointment of some Republicans is just a bi-partisanship or good faith smoke screen (IMO) because the Democrats will still be able to pass almost anything they want with or without their help.

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When? McCain didn't run as a moderate Republican... he ran as a Republican. He was far more conservative during the election in 2008 than he had been in the election in 2000. Palin is a pretty condemning indication of how far to the right McCain really ran. That's what backfired - he didn't do much at all to distance himself from the neo-conservatives currently in power.

Yeah he ran as a Republican, but nobody from the conservative base was fooled into thinking he was anything other than moderate or left-leaning. It took an act of god to stop him from picking Lindsay Grahmnesty or Joe Leiberman as his running mate (not that Palin was a better choice). He HAD to pick someone like Palin because there was zero excitement among the conservatives in the Republican party, not at all because it indicates how conservative he is. In fact, it illustrates how far to the right McCain isn't, because he needed her to balance him out. So, with Palin he went as far to the right as he could go, and as much as people think Palin hurt the election, McCain would have done even worse if he would have picked Grahm or Lieberman.

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To be fair, reverse this and it is the conservative ideal. Of course both sides try to move the other - but in the end, I think it's something we can agree on that both sides have proven willing to move to the center in order to get things done (often at the disdain of the hardcore elements of their own party). McCain has done this (in the past), and Obama is doing it now. I think the difference here is that I don't think much of it when Obama does it, but you hate it when McCain does.

An interesting point. My take on this statement is that McCain has been doing this as a strategy to appeal to more people with the idea that it will get him more votes, and it backfires on him because he shows less actual leadership skills and more of an appearance that he's a pandering politician. I mean, what was that shit about him stopping corruption in Washington with the whole "you will know their names... I will make them famous!" Then, he supports the initial bailout that had an extra $150 billion in pork. I think maybe you don't think much of it when Obama does it because you know this country is a center-right country, and that bodes well for Obama if he shifts to the right even a little with having such a liberal voting record. Maybe I'm wrong; that's just an assumption

Yeah, I think that's where our fundamental disagreement is - I don't believe this is a right-leaning country at all.

And I would also argue that conservatives didn't lean left to curry favor under Clinton... that is a uniquely Obama phenomenon thusfar.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Yeah, I think that's where our fundamental disagreement is - I don't believe this is a right-leaning country at all. And I would also argue that conservatives didn't lean left to curry favor under Clinton... that is a uniquely Obama phenomenon thusfar.

Check out the exit polls- 22% of people who voted consider themselves liberal, while 34% conservative. In 2004 it was 21% liberal and 34% conservative. If the past two elections were a reflection of a notworthy leftward shift in the national ethos, shouldn't there be a serious increase in the number of people that view themselves as liberal, and a decrease in conservatives?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1

Look at what happened when conservatives supported Prop 8 in CA... when that base is actually inspired, you see their true numbers show. They just stayed home for McCain or voted for Obama. McCain only got 78% of the conservative vote and only 89% of the Republican vote. If McCain actually moved to the right to appeal to the base, shouldn't he have done better with that base? After all, Obama got 88% of those claiming to be liberal.

About Clinton- you're right, conservatives didn't lean left; he won with 42% of the vote thanks to that little fly in the ointment Ross Perot who pretty much neutralized Bush. There wasn't any independant this time around that could get any respectable vote percentage.

EDIT: How can you not believe this country is right-leaning with more people believing in the devil and hell than evolution? lol

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Originally posted by The17sss Check out the exit polls- 22% of people who voted consider themselves liberal, while 34% conservative. In 2004 it was 21% liberal and 34% conservative. If the past two elections were a reflection of a notworthy leftward shift in the national ethos, shouldn't there be a serious increase in the number of people that view themselves as liberal, and a decrease in conservatives? http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1 Look at what happened when conservatives supported Prop 8 in CA... when that base is actually inspired, you see their true numbers show. They just stayed home for McCain or voted for Obama. McCain only got 78% of the conservative vote and only 89% of the Republican vote. If McCain actually moved to the right to appeal to the base, shouldn't he have done better with that base? After all, Obama got 88% of those claiming to be liberal. About Clinton- you're right, conservatives didn't lean left; he won with 42% of the vote thanks to that little fly in the ointment Ross Perot who pretty much neutralized Bush. There wasn't any independant this time around that could get any respectable vote percentage. EDIT: How can you not believe this country is right-leaning with more people believing in the devil and hell than evolution? lol

Well, for one I don't see religion as a left and right issue - it's not politics, it's just religion. Christianity isn't limited to conservatives (though I agree that more radical manifestations of it seem to be).

For another, I look at how Americans view specific issues with more weight than their self-identification. A third of the country can't even identify their home state on a map - I certainly don't trust them to identify correctly as conservative or liberal. I've met way too many "conservatives" in my time in favor of universal access to healthcare and education to put much credence in numbers like that.

Rasmussen puts together a fairly good poll on which side Americans "trust" more on specific issues - I agree that it doesn't necessarily mean that they agree with the exact stance of the party, but it's difficult to trust someone on education when you disagree with their philosophy on education, no?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...tance_on_issues

And in any case, self-identification is beginning to catch up to stances on issues.

From 2007:

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Rasmussen Reports has taken a look at how conservative or liberal the voters are in different aspects of their every day life. They found that 41% of the voters think of themselves as conservative when it comes to the issues of taxes, government spending and the regulation of private business while 41% consider themselves to be moderates and 12% say they are liberal.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/ar...vative_are.html

That's a fairly significant change in the numbers you posted.

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