but if you can capture the concept of nothing and bind it into form, doesnt the form therefore imply existence?

Bah, this thread is going to far.....its quite simple really......You can question my explanation all you wish, I'll keep up the debate and defend my explanation, don't worry.....

Zero is a number. It defines a value, althought it ofcourse, doesn't hold a value, it still defines it, in which all numbers do.

Well I have to deal with 0 in math class, so it must be a number. By the way i hate numbers. Math too

Ok zero is a number, but has many odd properties.

It has no value, yet can be manipulated to form a value.

eg, 1/0 = infinity, as you can put 1 into nothing forever.

0 is ALMOST like an imaginary number eg the square root of a negative number. It is impossible to put a numerical value into it, yet it theoretically still exists as a function that can be expressed in the form of a graph.

Same with the function Ln. Ln 0 is undefined, but still exists.

Theres also an algebraic way of proving that 2 equals one. In fact it shows that any number up to infinity can equal one. but i don't know it!

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Time to get semantical.

You're talking about different things:

If we're talking about zero as a mathematical concept, then it's hard to deny its existence. Indeed, without the existence of zero (invented in Arabia, was it not?) modern mathematics wouldn't work.

If you're talking about it as a general concept though, then it would be hard to say that zero - or "nothingness" to describe it a different way - actually exists. In fact, zero of anything tangible, by definition, cannot exist. You can't "have" zero chickens, you can only "not have" any chickens. Zero has no positive nor negative properties, and can only be referred to in terms of absence of being, not as a being-in-itself.

Thus, zero - or nothing - can only be referred to, tangibly, in the properties it "doesn't" have, as it doesn't have any tangible properties of existence in itself. However, it's existence in a numeric sense can and has been proven usen simply arithmatic.

So there you go.

The question was more directed towards ok you have 245 and 2045, is zero a number or a place holder. What does it really mean other than a space. Why would you not be able to put a blank space instead of zero. and would that blank space therefore be a number?

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax The question was more directed towards ok you have 245 and 2045, is zero a number or a place holder. What does it really mean other than a space. Why would you not be able to put a blank space instead of zero. and would that blank space therefore be a number?

Its a number. It defines the value of the entire number as a whole. 245 = 245, 2045 = 2,045. The entire value of the number without the 0 would be, 245. Once again, its quite simple. 2,045, is more than "two thousand forty five".....In mathematics ofcourse, the zero is silent. If it wasn't silent, I'd imagine we would be saying "two thousand, zero hundred and forty five. It would be the same as any other number, we just simply don't say it. Considering number value means nothing, then 2,145, and 2,045 are no way different. Same with 2,945, all the same. Each number, for example, the 9, define a value for the following numbers. The 9 defines the "hundredth" place, equaling 9 hundred, the 0, defines the hundredth place as well, however, though the number 0 doesn't actually hold its own value, it still defines the value of the following numbers. Just like the 4 in, 2,045.....it holds value in the "tenth" place.....defining the value of the number following.

People question, does 0,000 hold more value than 0,001, it ofcourse, doesn't. Its just the simple understanding that zero holds no true "physical reference" value. Zero HOLDS nothing, but means something, definining itself, just like any number.

zero is not a number... i herd either my math or science teacehr tell me this

why dont you ask yours? they will clear this up for sure

quote:

Originally posted by Nadi Well I have to deal with 0 in math class, so it must be a number.

you also have to deal with teachers in math class, but that doesn't mean that they're numbers too .... sorry, I just thought that your argument was the most pathetic post here on ta, besides all 'my' stupid ones

Renegade: i agree 100%...

quote:

Originally posted by Flec zero is not a number... i herd either my math or science teacehr tell me this why dont you ask yours? they will clear this up for sure

Perhaps you are right, but you are canadian, but still, you could be right...

Honestly, this debate on whether zero is a number has been going on for centuries......Science and reasoning go into depths far beyond those that anyone would want to reach. Amazing how extensive this topic and debate really is out there in this world. There are books, articles, etc. written on this debate.

I know that the simple facts I stated, are all true except for the fact that it may/may not prove zero IS actually a number. All my facts definitely do prove zero as being a definite place holder. Ofcourse, the question still remains, is zero a number. Many people say yes, and many people say no. It goes MUCH deeper than what any of us would ever want to post about. Its definitely a difficult debate, especially considering that I can't really think of one true source for an answer. Teachers now days have so many different ideas and beliefs in mathematics etc, that ideas are too widespread and random to help anyone find a true solution.

I may be wrong, not afraid to admit it, but I personally believe, that zero is a number.

If you wish to continue and look even deeper into the topic, I have a link you may be interested in. I found this link minutes ago, with a simple search http://ubmail.ubalt.edu/~harsham/zero/ZERO.HTM

Honestly, I never even read a quarter of it, simply due to lack of interest, (definitely a boring argument if you ask me, but definitely debatable) maybe the answer is stated in there, but who knows how accurate that source really is. Anyway, If you do find a true, accurate, reputable source with the correct, answer, don't hesitate in posting it here, as knowing the true answer, (which I somewhat believe is not out there), would never hurt, but wasting time searching for an answer that will benefit me in no way, would.

quote:

Perhaps you are right, but you are canadian, but still, you could be right...

Are you stupid or just plain dumb. You keep bashing canadians like we are some subrace that does not meet up with you arrogant americans. I just don't get it, you continue to bash us and bash us. You are pathetic and lame. My mother is american, my dad is canadian, i hold dual passports and dual greencards and i personally think there is no difference in terms of intelligence. So please grow the fuck up!.

It was a joke, and clearly not malicious

and keep it to the topic. PM him if you are upset, cuz i dont give a hell about it. Dont F up my thread with this.

Last edited by Orbax on Jun-10-2002 at 21:35