quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono ...unfortunately we all know this will continue.

yeah, can't fault your reasoning there

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quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono If only a government ruling from three independent sources backed by solid scientific evidence could do such a thing... ...unfortunately we all know this will continue.

Sometimes, not even too much is enough.

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quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono "Natural" alternative? What, just get the disease and build your immunity that way? That's the only "natural" alternative to vaccination I can think of that would give you immunity...or do you have some leafy green vegetable/obscure Asian berry diet that makes you immune to disease?

What's the difference between getting infected with or without the vaccine?
There are definitely ways to boost your immune system, talk to any certified naturopath.
My point was that even with the vaccine shot, you're not immune to new strains and it doesn't prevent one from becoming a carrier.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r There are definitely ways to boost your immune system, talk to any certified naturopath.

i did speak to my naturopath; she said to hold two barley leaves aloft during the full moon and repeat the phrase "naturopaths are failed doctors" 3 times while patting my stomach.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i did speak to my naturopath; she said to hold two barley leaves aloft during the full moon and repeat the phrase "naturopaths are failed doctors" 3 times while patting my stomach, while watching The Secret.

fixed

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r What's the difference between getting infected with or without the vaccine? There are definitely ways to boost your immune system, talk to any certified naturopath. My point was that even with the vaccine shot, you're not immune to new strains and it doesn't prevent one from becoming a carrier.

The difference is that with a vaccine (with the rare exception when using a live vaccine) you're not going to get the full-blown illness. That's a pretty important difference when the disease might either kill you or leave you disabled for life. With the exception of influenza, which has a couple unique properties that allow it to modify itself rather quickly, most viruses are either stable or change in ways that partial immunity from previous infection still offers benefit. That's why adults don't get sick as often or as severely as kids. We aren't necessarily getting the same diseases over and over, but the "new" ones we do get are close enough that it doesn't matter.

I'd love to know what some of these "immune boosters" are and see some evidence to back them. I'm not being condescending, I'd just really like to see a scientifically proven immune booster.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono The difference is that with a vaccine (with the rare exception when using a live vaccine) you're not going to get the full-blown illness. That's a pretty important difference when the disease might either kill you or leave you disabled for life. With the exception of influenza, which has a couple unique properties that allow it to modify itself rather quickly, most viruses are either stable or change in ways that partial immunity from previous infection still offers benefit. That's why adults don't get sick as often or as severely as kids. We aren't necessarily getting the same diseases over and over, but the "new" ones we do get are close enough that it doesn't matter. I'd love to know what some of these "immune boosters" are and see some evidence to back them. I'm not being condescending, I'd just really like to see a scientifically proven immune booster.

No worries Neo, I'm not here to knock 'traditional' medicine nor do I hug trees and shun ambulances.
I've been in the care of hospitals a few times and I have to say, our Toronto medical community are some of the best in the world!

Here:
http://www.ccnm.edu/

This is where we take our kids.

and here:
http://www.herbological.com/images/downloads/HH2.pdf

Cheers...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r No worries Neo, I'm not here to knock 'traditional' medicine nor do I hug trees and shun ambulances. I've been in the care of hospitals a few times and I have to say, our Toronto medical community are some of the best in the world! Here: http://www.ccnm.edu/ This is where we take our kids. and here: http://www.herbological.com/images/downloads/HH2.pdf Cheers...

Cool. I'm going to look at those.

I'm not trying to knock so-called "alternative" medicine. I realize that there are many, many things we have yet to learn about how our bodies work and react and I know that the medicine I practice doesn't have all the answers. My mind set is; "if it doesn't hurt you and it makes you feel better, do it!"

I guess I'm a bit miffed right now because this whole immunization thing has been a BIG deal for a while and a lot of the rhetoric came from practitioners of "natural" medicine. When I first got into medicine, I had a horrific experience with a young mother with cancer who decided to go the herbal route and turned a benign, operable mass into a tumor that left three little girls without a mother. It still makes me angry to this day that she was talked into herbs instead of curative traditional treatment. So...I'm trying to remain open-minded with other medical practices, just as long as it doesn't give someone false confidence in beating or avoiding disease or overtly injures them.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...21201792&s_pos= Not that this is something new to the sane community at large, and not that it will stop those desperately seeking a cause (and someone to blame) for their children's medical condition, but at least now there's something fairly significant on the books.

I guess by your definition of sanity I would be insane, which is kind of ironic. If that descriptor fits anyone, I think it would be more appropriate to apply it to those who aren't skeptical of the claims made by institutions who's interests are driven primarily by profit, and externalities aren't much of a concern if at all. My sister is a doctor, a pediatrician to be more precise. I have arguments with her all the time regarding vaccination. And it always comes down to "this is what my text books taught me in med school" and therefore "what the medical community thinks at large." So I challenged my 'sane' sister to do some research on where the funding for text books comes from and the history of FDA in context of their [direct and indirect] relation with the pharmaceutical industry and the sector of corporate America manufacturing additives and synthetic alternatives to natural foods and ingredients. I went as far as to refer a few books to her and actual documentaries made by dissenting professionals in the medical community to who go more in depth of the scientific aspect of things. She never got back to me on it, and it didn't even seem to make any effort with some of the material I referred her to as a start. Another aspect I asked her to pay attention to where the research was done, who funded it, and to take note of the relation between the private and public sector in this regard. Of course she can check any sources she wants and is by no means limited to the source material I gave her... I never heard back from her about the subject. I like how everything that's critical of the corporate world, government, the system in general, or any large institutions people are [almost completely] dependent on, institutions with a history reflective of no genuine concern, in fact, on many occasions, quite the opposite, automatically results in labels like "insane," "radical," or "conspiracy theory" and other such [misapplied] and marginalizing terms meant to end discussion and function basically as an ad hominem attack as opposed to actually paying attention to the content. People and their absurd insecurities can be rather annoying, but after a certain point, there's nothing else to do but be amused. Because there's no point in saying anything or presenting any information or arguments, and there's certainly no point in getting upset about how sad most member of this species are. You can't feel too bad for people when they choose to be that way, regardless of how concerned you many or may not be about their general well being. Anyways, I was just checking PDD after ages and it's funny how things are exactly the same. For some reason, I guess because this is regarding children, I felt the nagging urge to say something. Take it easy.

[EDIT]
@ Goundhogboy: I've always found your sig to be rather irnoic as the guy you're quoting is clearly "insane" by what I assume would be your definition of sanity, judging by your posts. You know, this dude right here:

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Feb-17-2009 at 21:26

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Cool. I'm going to look at those. I'm not trying to knock so-called "alternative" medicine. I realize that there are many, many things we have yet to learn about how our bodies work and react and I know that the medicine I practice doesn't have all the answers. My mind set is; "if it doesn't hurt you and it makes you feel better, do it!" I guess I'm a bit miffed right now because this whole immunization thing has been a BIG deal for a while and a lot of the rhetoric came from practitioners of "natural" medicine. When I first got into medicine, I had a horrific experience with a young mother with cancer who decided to go the herbal route and turned a benign, operable mass into a tumor that left three little girls without a mother. It still makes me angry to this day that she was talked into herbs instead of curative traditional treatment. So...I'm trying to remain open-minded with other medical practices, just as long as it doesn't give someone false confidence in beating or avoiding disease or overtly injures them.

Understand totally.
There's a LOT of confused people out there and one really has to do their homework before deciding to go such a route.
Obviously your example is of the confused variety.
I don't understand some people who are of the mentality of, "OOooo it's 'natural' so it must be better!"
It's a nightmare for consumers since the marketing of such things is such a gray area as well - what's '100% Natural' mean?
What does 'organic' mean? etc., etc.
I know I'm paint with a very large brush but truly, there needs to be some oversight when it comes the whole 'natural'/organic/holistic route.
Personally, we're very careful but at the same time, we've seen the benefits and understand that it has merit, but we do do our homework...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I guess by your definition of sanity I would be insane, which is kind of ironic. If that descriptor fits anyone, I think it would be more appropriate to apply it to those who aren't skeptical of the claims made by institutions who's interests are driven primarily by profit, and externalities aren't much of a concern if at all. My sister is a doctor, a pediatrician to be more precise. I have arguments with her all the time regarding vaccination. And it always comes down to "this is what my text books taught me in med school" and therefore "what the medical community thinks at large." So I challenged my 'sane' sister to do some research on where the funding for text books comes from and the history of FDA in context of their [direct and indirect] relation with the pharmaceutical industry and the sector of corporate America manufacturing additives and synthetic alternatives to natural foods and ingredients. I went as far as to refer a few books to her and actual documentaries made by dissenting professionals in the medical community to who go more in depth of the scientific aspect of things. She never got back to me on it, and it didn't even seem to make any effort with some of the material I referred her to as a start. Another aspect I asked her to pay attention to where the research was done, who funded it, and to take note of the relation between the private and public sector in this regard. Of course she can check any sources she wants and is by no means limited to the source material I gave her... I never heard back from her about the subject. I like how everything that's critical of the corporate world, government, the system in general, or any large institutions people are [almost completely] dependent on, institutions with a history reflective of no genuine concern, in fact, on many occasions, quite the opposite, automatically results in labels like "insane," "radical," or "conspiracy theory" and other such [misapplied] and marginalizing terms meant to end discussion and function basically as an ad hominem attack as opposed to actually paying attention to the content. People and their absurd insecurities can be rather annoying, but after a certain point, there's nothing else to do but be amused. Because there's no point in saying anything or presenting any information or arguments, and there's certainly no point in getting upset about how sad most member of this species are. You can't feel too bad for people when they choose to be that way, regardless of how concerned you many or may not be about their general well being. Anyways, I was just checking PDD after ages and it's funny how things are exactly the same. For some reason, I guess because this is regarding children, I felt the nagging urge to say something. Take it easy. [EDIT] @ Goundhogboy: I've always found your sig to be rather irnoic as the guy you're quoting is clearly "insane" by what I assume would be your definition of sanity, judging by your posts. You know, this dude right here:

interesting, shaolin is also an expert on all things medical! must be tiring knowing so much about so many things, especially something like med science.

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Shaolin, I missed your posts, man!!! Good to know you're still here.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture