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Originally posted by boris_the_bear but at the end of day, perception is the source of all human fear, pain and other unpleasant feelings, so if you are to simply seize to exist (aka complete nothingness) you will not be giving a flying fuck about it. but still... its hard to imagine the non-existence of yourself. i think it's impossible to imagine since not existing is radically different from any other form of being, right? and yikes!.. i'm not a christian... hope they have pizza in hell

We are our feelings though. A human who doesn't feel is said to be "soulless". I don't believe in the idea of a soul but I believe in feelings. Being freed from negative feelings is meaningless if you don't exist to comprehend that freedom.

The whole idea really bothers me. I know it won't feel bad, but it still really bothers me. More than anything else.

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Originally posted by boris_the_bear omg 666

I don't get that response, as it's neither relevant nor funny.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

My story is quite similar to yours, JBJ... you're not alone in this.

It's a very strange and unsettling feeling to reject God or deny his existence, and then still feel like you're really hurting God's feelings. One that will probably only ever to be able to be understood by people who have gone through it.

I hate to put it in such juvenile terms as "Oh man, I denied God... he's going to be so angry and hurt by this", but that's really how it feels.

It's hard to find a balance between what makes logical sense to us and what we have essentially just been brainwashed (and, I hate to use that term) to think. I imagine that it's going to be a struggle for my entire life.

The easiest thing to do is push it away and not really think about it... (which, ironically, is one of the worst things that you could do... as I was taught.)

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Originally posted by david.michael My story is quite similar to yours, JBJ... you're not alone in this. It's a very strange and unsettling feeling to reject God or deny his existence, and then still feel like you're really hurting God's feelings. One that will probably only ever to be able to be understood by people who have gone through it. I hate to put it in such juvenile terms as "Oh man, I denied God... he's going to be so angry and hurt by this", but that's really how it feels. It's hard to find a balance between what makes logical sense to us and what we have essentially just been brainwashed (and, I hate to use that term) to think. I imagine that it's going to be a struggle for my entire life. The easiest thing to do is push it away and not really think about it... (which, ironically, is one of the worst things that you could do... as I was taught.)

It seems to me that the best course of action would be to put forward the effort to explore different views, maybe gain a broader understanding of what others (be they of a religious or non-religious background) have thought on the subject, and form your views based on what makes sense to you. Ignoring it will just drive you crazy whenever you don't have something to distract yourself with.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

well, if god's real we have free will.

if we have free will we must have been given it by god.

we're essentially fucked up, we're not infalible as god is.

hence the rules that guide our living laid out in the bible (10 commandments etc are essentially because we were too stupid to survive long enough for us to really LIVE the kind of lives of joy and happiness god wanted us to (he gave us free will for this reason))

modern christianity is useless unless it realises these things.

we live in a world where government helps us live 'freely'...

archaic rules set up to help us live only (not to control us etc) can therefore, logically be put aside in a number of cases...

i guess my point is i think you should be living your life in the modern world with the concepts of jesus (essentially just RESPECT for fellow people of all kinds), and love for yourself.

which means, do whatever the fuck you want as long as you're enjoying yourself (physically AND spiritually), and not hurting anyone else...

read a book, take some drugs, have sex... life is about joy, not about rules and restrictions and the fear of death and torture.

it is the most heinous crime that something as beautiful as religion could be turned into something as hateful and despicable as the church.

note: these are my personal opinions after spending a lot of time in my youth in church situations, and a lot of my teens considering the church, as well as reading the bible at some stage along the way and contemplating life in general: i don't know if my views are supported by others, but i know they are true.

edit: what my post means is that you can live however you want, and not possibly be in the line of fire of god.

God is infallible, loving, ubiquitous and all-knowing (if real ). he is not some contemptuous fool who would misunderstand your intentions, or belittle your existence. If you're trying to be good (according to your, or the law's guide-lines) you cannot possibly go to hell. it is simple logic, and you are insulting the superiority of god, and you are being arrogant, self-centered and paranoid if you think you'd go to hell just for having sex with a girl you are in love with, commited to etc (or whatever other tiny pointless sin you may have commited)

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard It seems to me that the best course of action would be to put forward the effort to explore different views, maybe gain a broader understanding of what others (be they of a religious or non-religious background) have thought on the subject, and form your views based on what makes sense to you. Ignoring it will just drive you crazy whenever you don't have something to distract yourself with.

That's essentially what I do, I just do it in little bits. I'm never opposed to hearing others views on it, I just haven't actively pursued answers in a long while because that never seems to get me anywhere.

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Originally posted by EgosXII it is the most heinous crime that something as beautiful as religion could be turned into something as hateful and despicable as the church.

I definitely agree with this statement, here.

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Originally posted by EgosXII it is the most heinous crime that something as beautiful as religion could be turned into something as hateful and despicable as the church.

Which church?

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Which church?

For me, it's more like "most organized religion".

Not that I'd change my upbringing at all.

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Originally posted by david.michael That's essentially what I do, I just do it in little bits. I'm never opposed to hearing others views on it, I just haven't actively pursued answers in a long while because that never seems to get me anywhere.

It took me more then ten years of reading up on all the great religions, talking to faith leaders of most religions, reading/studying non-theistic philosophies, and trying to reconcile all of that with my own thoughts and experiences to reach a sense of peace. In truth, I'm still searching for answers on a great many things and I expect I will never find anything I can accept as objective truth on most of them; however, all the effort was well worth it as I'm not able to live without fear or hate. Oddly, rather then a fear of hell or nothingness that many people cite as their catalyst for journey's of faith, mine was inspired by a fear of heaven.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by Moral Hazard Oddly, rather then a fear of hell or nothingness that many people cite as their catalyst for journey's of faith, mine was inspired by a fear of heaven.

What was it that scared you? An eternal life of meaninglessness? No existence of "time", which is basically what determines who we are and what we do? Eternal boredom?

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Originally posted by david.michael For me, it's more like "most organized religion".

I tend to reject blanket complaints about "organized religion" since they are usually more a loose collection of complaints against specific actions by specific religious groups or doctrines that don't apply to others. To me; most complaints about "organized religion" are a kin to stating all cars are terrible because the Pinto exploded, the Pony was too small, and the Fierro overheated all the time.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down