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stevėsto
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Apr 2006
Location: St Petersburg, FL

quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
LOL, what "cultural roots" does a white suburban dork even have to express in the context of dance music? I don't see Bach or Stockhausen getting many bodies moving. Maybe our hypothetical dorky white guy can play some bluegrass?



I don't see why so much should be made of the issue of race in dance music anyway. Just play what you like and try not to be too much of a trendwhore...


this is the 2nd time in a row you pull something out of thin air from my post. i never said you have to express your cultural roots, i suggested that if you are going to go up there and pose as an artistic dj then one should simply express themself. ricardo and luciano just happened to express themselves by showing their cultural roots, that was their unique way of expressing themselves. but, to answer your question, if your average white american dude wanted to express his cultural roots, he might want to use whatever sounds inspired him growing up, music he was into when he was younger, like motley crue or the cure or they might be giants, something that represents him personally.

and its not about race, i am talking about, fuck it here listen to lyrics of this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yIyLXALChY

Old Post Feb-20-2009 17:23 
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MrJiveBoJingles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: U.S.

I don't think it's very productive to automatically charge DJs with "inauthenticity" or whatever if they get into a sound that originates from a culture they didn't grow up in, and that's what I saw you as doing. If you were just making the obvious point that trendy copy-catting is boring and artistically worthless, then I agree with you and apologize for the misinterpretation...

Old Post Feb-20-2009 17:36  United States
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stevėsto
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Apr 2006
Location: St Petersburg, FL

quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
I don't think it's very productive to automatically charge DJs with "inauthenticity" or whatever if they get into a sound that originates from a culture they didn't grow up in, and that's what I saw you as doing. If you were just making the obvious point that trendy copy-catting is boring and artistically worthless, then I agree with you and apologize for the misinterpretation...


the latter, thanks,

Old Post Feb-20-2009 17:58 
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Trance-M
Since 1994 tranceaddict



Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Limburg, Netherlands

quote:
Originally posted by Lomeli
Nathan Fake - The Sky Was Pink (James Holden Remix)

that track is artsy as fuck yet it works at the club.


Really? I think I would have heard some whistling for sure.


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Old Post Feb-20-2009 20:48  Netherlands
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PETRAN
Like Antennas To Heaven



Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Volos, Greece

quote:
Originally posted by stevėsto
I think in general, people are tired of artsy fartsiness in dance music. people just want to go back to the good ole days when it was raunchy and fun. many dj's focus too much on "building a set" and "taking you on a journey" or expressing themselves artistically through a sequence of tracks, that they forget the number 1 priority is have a dancefloor moving.

The reason why people are tired of it is because minimal/tech became popular to the point that's all you'd hear all night long in the club, from beginning to end. Just like a track has a time and place, so do genres. Doesn't make sense to play one flavor all night long. It's "boring europe's dancefloors to death" right now:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/mus...al.techno.house

Another reason is because this music is hard to work with. Think about it: you could play some popular mainstream dance classics that all you have to do is hit play on the cd player and even your grandma will get up and dance, like "baby got back" or "groove is in the heart" etc. On the opposite end of the spectrum, very long repetitive trancey tracks ... do not work on their own, at 0+ pitch. The artsier and trancier, the more talented the DJ needs to be to make it work. That's exactly the problem, you have a million djs that are not talented enough to play the music they are playing.

Another reason is trendiness. Its remarkable really, how ricardo willalobo starts to play tracks with accordians, trumpets, clarinets, and within weeks you see the minimal charts filled with tracks with this formula. Its amazing how powerful this one man's opinion is, that suddenly its not the glitchy sound that's hip, it's the organic minimal sound like the ones Clovis listed that all the "underground" djs play now. At this point a lot of artistic credibility is lost, it becomes more of a synthetic mind trickery thing, wrapped in an organic instrumentation ladened blanket. To be artistic is to express yourself. Ricardo, Luciano, they played tracks with that sound to express their cultural roots, so when i hear white suburban dorks playing it i can't help but roll my eyes. If you want to be artistic, do something really crazy and different from everyone else. Go home right now and do a minimal tech track mashup with an 80's metal hair band song. Anything! Just something for the love of god that no one else is doing. Please! Be unique! Don't worry if no one else likes it or you get kicked off the booth, take a chance for once.

Another reason is it lacks sex appeal. Its mental hypnotic music, with ryhthms that are hard to get on a girl's booty with.

Combine all of this and its only a matter of time when an aspiring producer on the dancefloor goes home frustrated and says "fuck it" and does a reactionary thing like make music on the opposite end of the spectrum of artsy fartsy music, such as justice, boyz noize, indie rock etc. This is why, in my opinion, there is a big divide, a split, in dance music today.




The thing is that those things you say always happened with EDM.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/mus...al.techno.house

"Just as electroclash transformed the way dance music thinks and looks; minimal transformed the way it sounds. Therefore, it is only right, that as it becomes a cliche, as it begins to soundtrack TV ads, minimal - as a formula, as a sound - should be ruthlessly dispatched. Minimal's wider sense of sonic daring, however, is going to be with us for years to come. Hopefully."



"hopefully..."






This is one of the most idiotic and annoying articles ever.."electroclash transformed the way dance music thinks and looks"..."minimal transformed the way it sounds"...W-T-F...

Old Post Feb-20-2009 20:57  Greece
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sgb476
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Thames Gateway, South Essex

to me this is about how disposable tracks or releases are, and also how widespread they become at the time of their release. am i going to want to play a track with a massive bassline, or a hugely recognisable sample 1 year after its release?

production techniques and sounds do the rounds, but become worn out; i reckon artists in the more fashionable bracket release a lot more music a lot more often, and naming nobody in particular, will end up disappearing into obscurity as quickly as they appeared on the scene (unless they adapt to change very well).

its not a problem though, because it's always going to be there.


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Originally posted by a TA
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Old Post Feb-20-2009 21:16  United Kingdom
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bubbleguuum
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2006
Location:

Good posts Leon & stevesto.

The problem is that it's much easier to make a forgettable and quick uninspired club track using all effects available to fill the void, than something with a real artistic vision that will be remembered. It's like a product. There is a marquet for this flood of new club tracks so I don't see that stopping anytime soon.

Then you have the issue of skill. Not many producers have the skill nor will to raise the bar and make awesome music that'll make you go wow in 10 years. Usually, producers that have a musician formation do better at this but that's a minority in electronic music. And they don't hesitate to put years of effort to master their art. I find most track lacking in the composition department: either it goes nowhere and you feel the producer got bored half-way, or there is no satisfying progression or it's so predictable that you'll know how it will end after the first few bars...

I know I've become very picky with new music I buy...it really has to do something special to appeal to me whether in composition, structure or sound design.

Old Post Feb-21-2009 01:10  France
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ZxZDeViLZxZ
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Regina, SK

quote:
Originally posted by stevėsto
this is the 2nd time in a row you pull something out of thin air from my post. i never said you have to express your cultural roots, i suggested that if you are going to go up there and pose as an artistic dj then one should simply express themself. ricardo and luciano just happened to express themselves by showing their cultural roots, that was their unique way of expressing themselves. but, to answer your question, if your average white american dude wanted to express his cultural roots, he might want to use whatever sounds inspired him growing up, music he was into when he was younger, like motley crue or the cure or they might be giants, something that represents him personally.

and its not about race, i am talking about, fuck it here listen to lyrics of this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yIyLXALChY


haah now thats artsy


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Old Post Feb-21-2009 16:10  Canada
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Leon
88mph



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Nov 2004

nice one bubblegum

you used the word marquet, I thought that was pretty cool

what you said about construction and composition really made sense to me. I just want to see more effort out of these artists today rather than spam. I just think people are scared to be expressive (something I think people are embarrassed of today, look at how nobody wants to be associated with trance)


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Old Post Feb-22-2009 02:10 
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nefardec
Tranceaddict in tranning



Registered: Oct 2004
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by stevėsto
I think in general, people are tired of artsy fartsiness in dance music. people just want to go back to the good ole days when it was raunchy and fun. many dj's focus too much on "building a set" and "taking you on a journey" or expressing themselves artistically through a sequence of tracks, that they forget the number 1 priority is have a dancefloor moving.



what are you talking about? ask any of the legendary djs like david mancuso, francois kevorkian, and larry levan (rip), etc and they will tell you it is ONLY about "building a set" and "taking you on a journey".


i don't know what mythical 'good ole days' you are referring to.


as far as it being raunchy and fun, this is not something that has changed - most club music is exactly this. Acid and chicago house were often raunchy and fun, but there was also an element of sonic fiction to go along with it. That's why "Phuture" is called "Phuture" and not "Dancefloor Music Producer" or "Fuckpony" or some lame first name like "Tyler Rollins" from the wichita mnml underground



why is there this stigma that this stuff cannot be beautiful or art or intelligent? It's just as inane as this age-old racist idea that so-called "black music" needs to rely on the street.

the fact is, dance music can be beautiful, artistic, and intelligent. in many cultures, the dance and its associated music is among the highest forms of spirituality and artistic expression. to denigrate 'dance music' to something only meant keep people buying drinks in a nightclub until closing makes you just another sucker caught in the gears of capitalism.

a dj is the contemporary storyteller. music more than ever contains our cultural memories and values. a dj is an archive of cultural and musical memory. every sample is a kind of time capsule, cultural meme which persists and propagates.

when you dj you are not just making people dance, you are telling the story of your culture, whatever that culture may be. there are many ways to tell the story and there are many stories to be told.

and besides this cultural layer, music and sound as vibration have such a basic effect on human psychology and even physiology. i won't go into the specifics of it unless i am asked. basically if you are just deejaying to keep people moving (and simultaneously these people are just moving to keep themselves socially lubricated) you're selling yourself short.

Last edited by nefardec on Feb-22-2009 at 02:58

Old Post Feb-22-2009 02:36 
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EddieZilker
This is the dance.



Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Marijuana Sex Camp

quote:
Originally posted by stevėsto
Another reason is because this music is hard to work with. Think about it: you could play some popular mainstream dance classics that all you have to do is hit play on the cd player and even your grandma will get up and dance, like "baby got back" or "groove is in the heart" etc. On the opposite end of the spectrum, very long repetitive trancey tracks ... do not work on their own, at 0+ pitch. The artsier and trancier, the more talented the DJ needs to be to make it work. That's exactly the problem, you have a million djs that are not talented enough to play the music they are playing.


I'll concede, as a producer, that I ought to make it a "DJ friendly" tune, hence I show up at TA and attempt to interact with DJ's. I take issue, however, with the fact that because music is hard and unwieldy, particularly in the hands of an amateur musician, such as a DJ, that it shouldn't be complex.

Now, I realize that not every DJ is an amateur, and in general, most of the DJ's I've heard have a great deal of my respect. My problem, in a way, is that you're right. There are a lot of DJ's who simply don't know much about music. For a while, in the late nineties, it seemed like turn-tables were the answer to 1950's bongo drum ubiquity. I have had the misfortune of knowing one person who saw turn-tables as his ticket to self-aggrandizement.

My point is that being a DJ is something of a powerful position, and as such, it ought to be one which has some test to it, other than simple beat-matching. I've heard DJ's with an affinity of complex tunes just role them, back to back, as soon as a majority of the melodies had subsided. There was no grace given to harmonic cross-pollination. I've also heard them steam-roll over a track's integrity without any regard for the producer's intent, in order to mix into the next track.

Now, I realize, as a producer, that I lose my license to complain about how much butchery goes on behind the decks. I'm not taking on producer rights, here. I am referring to, however, an over-all lack of musicianship that seems lack-lustre with regard to what the music could actually be, were it in the hands of qualified individuals.

My argument is that a DJ, like any other musical artist, ought to be a musician, first, and a DJ second. They ought to be able to fathom cross-fades in and out of complex tunes and be able to work them into a set that isn't simply mindlessly bopping from one track to another.

Is it a lot to ask of anyone? Surely. Metropolitan orchestras, however, don't just let someone who's been playing the violin for less than five years into their ensemble. Why should a DJ be subject to any less scrutiny?

The answer to that question is because, currently, it's easier and people will fork over a lot of money to dance, mingle, look for anonymous hook-ups, get into fights, take too much MDMA, etc. etc. Unfortunately, it is that sort of attitude - that DJ's are a dime a dozen and that people will fork over gobs of cash for simpleton dalliance - that causes a lot of people not to respect the music, or worse, think of it as simple button pushing.

I'm not that militant about my point of view, but I feel that it is the ideal one. I am dubious about it being fully realized.

Old Post Feb-22-2009 03:46  United States
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winston
ultraviolet catastrophe



Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Yggdrasill

being a dj has nothing to do with power, power is an illusion, it's fantasy, it's up here. this notion that a dj has 'power' has scared away those who have real feelings for a scene, and by amateur djs you are referring to? most 'well known' djs i've seen trainwreck more often than your contemporary bedroom dj who tries very hard to get noticed.

Old Post Feb-22-2009 03:56 
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