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DJ_Eternal
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Mar 2003
Location: Warrington, England

It's never been about the method used to mix personally, but the experience as a whole and the music itself. If I'd just came back from a superb night out and found out *insert DJ Name here* had used a laptop to DJ with, as opposed to a set of turnables, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

As long as the mixing was generally good; track selection awesome and the atmosphere created by this was unique, then he could be mixing with two Hyena's for all I care. It's still an enjoyable experience regardless.

Old Post Feb-23-2009 21:10  United Kingdom
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Domesticated
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location:

Ableton is fine, but some DJs get too engrossed in the program and get distracted from the crowd, instead spending all their time considering what their next loop or effect will be. That sucks.

Old Post Feb-23-2009 21:29 
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Az
took me all the way back



Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Walking to John O'Groats for some spastics

gets on my tits a bit, someone on the zabiela forum said that they don't like ableton DJ's unless it's Sasha or Zabiela

Old Post Feb-23-2009 21:49 
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woscar
Starstuff



Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Guatemala, Guatemala

Not just Ableton DJs...pretty much everyone playing with any kind of software gets the stinky eye nowadays.

I'll say what nefardec and elFreak have already said: It's about what's coming out of the speakers.


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Old Post Feb-23-2009 22:10 
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Domesticated
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location:

quote:

First and foremost, computer DJs are boring as hell to watch. A single finger on a track pad, controlling things on a screen the crowd can’t see is not in the least entertaining, especially when compared to someone handling CDs or records. Secondly, because computer DJs are generally so busy twiddling round with effects or trying to find music on their hard drive, they tend not to pay attention to the crowd, which has the dual effect of decreasing their physical antics behind the decks, and dulling their track selection. However, this is not a concrete rule, and does not apply to all computer DJs.

Some DJs use Ableton or other computer based programs simply because they are no good at beat matching, or are sick of it after all these years. This type tends to use a minimal amount of effects and other computer trickery, and just stick to one track after the other as you would on decks, keeping them more attentive to the crowd. On the other hand, there are DJs like Sasha, who spend all their time in the booth making minute, boring changes to perfectly good tracks, and hence forget that the crowd is even there.

Besides detracting a DJs attention from the crowd and being plain dull to watch, computers also have the lovely trait of breaking down. Not so long ago, one Mr. Nathan Fake came to town, a gig which I was considering, but thankfully didn’t attend, for the crowd was treated to nothing but an hour of stuttering music and silence, thanks to a dodgy laptop. Trance CD Paul van Dyk is also one who has dealt with this problem, as well as many more big names. When was the last time you heard of a CDJ packing up? Perhaps you’ve heard a CD skip or freeze in the past, like I have, but that equates to an interruption that can be measured in seconds, as a new CD is loaded, or the crossfader slammed to the other side. It’s extremely rare for a CDJ itself to break down mid-set. Even rarer to require attention than a CDJ is the Technics 1200 turntable, the so called “tank” of the DJing industry. When was the last time you heard a laptop lauded for such reliability?

What vinyl and CD lack in versatility, Ableton and other programs make up, or so a computer DJ will tell anyone who will listen. I can’t deny that cutting up precise sections of a track or using multiple precise filters just isn't possible on a turntable or CD player, but what I do refute is the fact that this will make any real difference to the music.

Will the crowd notice if you extend a breakdown by 4 beats, or boost a frequency by +2dB? Probably not. How about if you use a drastic ping-pong reverb effect to improve the impact of a lack-lustre build-up? Most likely, but a dramatic effect like this could easily be done on a standard mixer with built in effects too.

Mixers and external effects units have already achieved so much when it comes to manipulating music creatively, that, in my opinion, whatever computers have to add is so negligible that it’s not even worth considering and so subtle that it’s not worth noticing.

All the time I see and hear interviews with DJs raving about their computers, and how much better it has made their job. However, no set on computer has ever astounded me and made me sit up and think “hey, what this person is doing live is amazing, why isn’t everyone using computers?” I’d like to think that I pay more careful attention than the average punter, too.

So, why are all these jocks raving about the versatility of Ableton and the ease of computer DJing in general? It’s purely because computers make their job easier, despite having no measurable impact on the crowd. After DJing for ten or twenty years, time spent behind the decks is obviously not as enjoyable as your first year, but having a new toy to play with, or, to be precise, a new medium with which to ply your craft, it’s likely to ease that boredom, as well as give you the impression that you’re playing better sets, simply because you’re doing more in the booth.

Well, I for one am opposed to it. I recognise that computer DJing is sadly “the future” of the art; however it would be good to see a return to carefully crafted sets from skillful DJs, with supreme track selection and flow, rather than poorly constructed “on-the-fly” mash-ups, tiny, dull changes to certain frequencies, and multiple loops playing at the same time, with no consideration for how they might actually sound on the dance floor (“hey, I’m playing six tracks at once, it must sound good!”). When will people realise that more does not equal better?

I’m sure that when CDJs first became popular, there were vinyl purists expounding exactly the same type of argument that I am now, but what the hell; in a way I agree with them too. Vinyl is and always will be the king, CDJs acceptable and enjoyable, but computer DJing is just plain horrible, and my opinion will stay the same until I see a ground-breaking set that proves otherwise. Stay tuned.

Old Post Feb-23-2009 22:17 
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elFreak
Blood Diamonds and Salsa



Registered: Feb 2008
Location: With Juan Pachanga Eating Tacos. Ah Ha Si Mi Gusta.

whoever wrote that is so full of shit that corn must grow on their head.


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Old Post Feb-23-2009 22:21 
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sgb476
Senior tranceaddict



Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Thames Gateway, South Essex

i think most ableton critics are being selective in their analysis, because they choose to rate the best vinyl jocks against the most average laptop dj experiences they witness.

that said, i do like to see some physicality from behind the booth.


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Old Post Feb-23-2009 22:39  United Kingdom
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SYSTEM-J
IDKFA.



Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Manchester
Re: Re: The continuing hate for Ableton DJs

quote:
Originally posted by nefardec
in deejaying, 'more' != 'better'. layering 4 shitty tracks does not make 1 good one, it makes a 4x shittier track. similarly, layering 4 good tracks prevents each of those tracks from being simply good on its own. more effects tends to ruin a perfectly good track. you have to have a really special ear and relationship with the software to get these things right, and like I said earlier, because ableton is easier and more accessible than deejaying with vinyl records, 9 times out of 10, the ableton dj is not going to have that really special ear.


Great post and I agree with all of it, but this is especially good. There are too many shit DJ Tools around these days. I personally think that if you're layering more than two tracks at once then those tracks are probably really fucking boring on their own.


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Old Post Feb-23-2009 22:49  England
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wotyzoid
it's not house



Registered: Apr 2007
Location: New Jersey
Re: The continuing hate for Ableton DJs

quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles

Anyway, why aren't these people ready to move on yet? Is the visual aspect of DJing really that important?


This argument is kind of dense IMHO, about as much as the " dj's that use ableton aren't real dj's".

It's blunt to take away the merit of vinyl as if it's some pre-historic thing. I personally do get get satisfaction from actually seeing a hand touch a piece of wax in conjunction with the music I am hearing. I would also much rather see a live band play some nasty jazz than hear it in the same sound quality though speakers. I think the visual aspect is something lot of people crave for when going out.

I don't think it has to be as radical/black and white as an argument as some people make it to be.

And then comes in this argument:

quote:
I mean, I understand the whole nostalgia trip and the mystique of records, but for me the most important thing is always the music, not the medium...


Sure. I rather have a guy do an amazing set in Ableton rather than a guy do a mediocre set on a pair of tables. However I cant help but prefer a guy who does something equally amazing on the tables. I get to see it happening.

I can understand why some people don't care.

"I don't go out to see a guy spin, I go out to enjoy the music"

Ok fine. Not everyone thinks that way however. Some people see the whole thing is as an experience and although someone placed it in a rather ignorant context in the previous thread; a point is that seeing a guy play with Ableton (irrelevent of the music) is a about as exciting as watching paint dry, much like someone playing with a guitar software to a crowd as opposed to the real thing.

edit:

e.g. Even though I love Boratto's music I'd much rather see this in person...



... as opposed to this.


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Last edited by wotyzoid on Feb-23-2009 at 23:18

Old Post Feb-23-2009 23:03  United States
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enydo
~



Registered: Jan 2008
Location: NYC

I use Ableton with a controller right now and I always feel like I'm just sitting around. I really wish I had tables, I'd love to be able to mix in a much more tactile environment.


Maybe I should just start spamming effects!


FLANGER, ACTIVATE.

Old Post Feb-23-2009 23:07 
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DJ Blitzkrieg
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Alpharetta, GA

If your using Ableton as a crutch instead of a tool to help you be more creative with livesets than its just plain nub. That goes for anything else such as Virtual DJ and what not.

Old Post Feb-23-2009 23:09  United States
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Clovis
techno jungle shit



Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Los Angeles

What really matters is the music you play, and why.


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Old Post Feb-23-2009 23:44  France
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