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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN moderate religion is the cesspool from which fanaticism grows. -there you go lebez

Hmmmm... so if you're a moderate capitalist, does this mean you'll be putting on the Ron Paul memorabilia shortly?

Religion is a belief much like ideology. It's no surprise that there are both docile and radical variants of it - using exclusively radical examples undermines the argument.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN moderate religion is the cesspool from which fanaticism grows. -there you go lebez

That's it I'm crusading your house.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Religion is a belief much like ideology.

but it is very special and stands above and beyond every other ism.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov It's no surprise that there are both docile and radical variants of it - using exclusively radical examples undermines the argument.

well, you guys call these "radical examples" whereas i merely think they're examples. is it a "radical" example when we talk about how many americans truly believe that the world is ~6000 years old? last time i checked that belief stood at around 40%.

how does one even classify radical? we have the recent example of the brazilian catholic church ex-communicating that 9yo girl who aborted the twins of her rapist. can it be considered radical when the actual mouthpiece of the belief system is acting? would you call all the opponents to abortion in the US "radical"? coz as far as church-goers go, they'd be pretty damn mainstream.

I guess its all in the eyes of the beholder, and what you consider to be outside the "normal" bounds of religious belief. Me being me, I see much of this "radicalism" to be nothing more than the manifestation of moderate religion given too much credence by society. Too much acceptance, too much "understanding", too much deference. Moreso than every single ideology ever invented by man. Why are we all so surprised when it blows up in our face?

As renegade put it- since there are no real yardsticks for measuring religious "accuracy", nobody can say for sure that those that strap TNT to their chests are necessarily any more "radical" than those that do not. For all we know god really does reward them with 72 virgins. It might be easy to call these people extremists, but the attempts by theists to disown the real problem- religious belief itself- is absurd. you cannot reason with someone who believes (honestly) that they are doing what god wants them to do.

Edit: the other reason we might focus on these "extreme" examples is because the news media doesn't really delve into the more mundane examples- "Child has nightmare about young friend who went to hell" - "adolescent too scared to ask about contraceptive measures ends up preggers" - "moderate religion the number 1 causing schism in society" - "girl dies from AIDS because condoms are satan!" - "US president hopeful fails as they do not believe in god"

You get the idea

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN but it is very special and stands above and beyond every other ism. well, you guys call these "radical examples" whereas i merely think they're examples. is it a "radical" example when we talk about how many americans truly believe that the world is ~6000 years old? last time i checked that belief stood at around 40%. how does one even classify radical? we have the recent example of the brazilian catholic church ex-communicating that 9yo girl who aborted the twins of her rapist. can it be considered radical when the actual mouthpiece of the belief system is acting? would you call all the opponents to abortion in the US "radical"? coz as far as church-goers go, they'd be pretty damn mainstream. I guess its all in the eyes of the beholder, and what you consider to be outside the "normal" bounds of religious belief. Me being me, I see much of this "radicalism" to be nothing more than the manifestation of moderate religion given too much credence by society. Too much acceptance, too much "understanding", too much deference. Moreso than every single ideology ever invented by man. Why are we all so surprised when it blows up in our face? As renegade put it- since there are no real yardsticks for measuring religious "accuracy", nobody can say for sure that those that strap TNT to their chests are necessarily any more "radical" than those that do not. For all we know god really does reward them with 72 virgins. It might be easy to call these people extremists, but the attempts by theists to disown the real problem- religious belief itself- is absurd. you cannot reason with someone who believes (honestly) that they are doing what god wants them to do. Edit: the other reason we might focus on these "extreme" examples is because the news media doesn't really delve into the more mundane examples- "Child has nightmare about young friend who went to hell" - "adolescent too scared to ask about contraceptive measures ends up preggers" - "moderate religion the number 1 causing schism in society" - "girl dies from AIDS because condoms are satan!" - "US president hopeful fails as they do not believe in god" You get the idea

More militant atheist bull shit. Talk about the culture of fear

Better ban religion to protect the moderates from going crazy and scaring us with their door knocking.

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Originally posted by Alex More militant atheist bull shit. Talk about the culture of fear

I don’t fear religion. You know why? Because I live in australia and religion has a wonderful backseat here. I could name you any number of countries where that isn't the case obviously. some people should be fearful.

hey, who's up for a mardi gras in iran!?

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Originally posted by Alex Better ban religion to protect the moderates from going crazy and scaring us with their door knocking.

i dont believe in a ban, people should be allowed to believe anything they wish. just as i am just as free to mock, challenge and berate them for taking foolish ideas out of church and trying to apply them to rational society.

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Also PKC if you're going to use ridiculous examples as evidence as to religion being bull shit. Get the damn facts straight.

You have a bad habit of exaggerating and providing false details to make your arguments sound more convincing.

That 9 year old girl was not excommunicated. The others involved in the abortion were. This is clearly a case of a Bishop going too far. I believe he could have merely asked the people involved to attend confession because I imagine regardless of the situation that as Catholics they felt bad both for the girl and for the lives they were forced to terminate for the sake of the girl.

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"I think the scientific and the artistic spirit have something in common. The scientist wants not only to learn the facts, but to understand how they cohere, fit together and make a whole. He even uses criteria such as beauty and symmetry to help decide which theory he wants.

The scientist cannot capture the whole cosmos in thought. In his mind he makes a kind of microcosm, which we see as an analogue of the cosmos. In this way we try to get a feeling for the whole. The artist, I suppose, gets a feeling for the whole some other way.�

David Bohm in “Art, Dialogue and the Implicate Order�, published in On Creativity RC (Routledge Classics)

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN I don’t fear religion. You know why? Because I live in australia and religion has a wonderful backseat here.

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Christian Lobby Calls for Bipartisan Support of ISP Filtering The Australian Christian Lobby (ACL) today called for bipartisan support for the Federal Government’s plans to filter the Internet at service provider level, saying that in the interests of children this issue should be placed above party politics. http://au.christiantoday.com/articl...tering/4844.htm

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Originally posted by Alex That 9 year old girl was not excommunicated. The others involved in the abortion were.

yeah, i remembered that after i posted. i dont think that changes my point at all however.

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Originally posted by Alex This is clearly a case of a Bishop going too far. I believe he could have merely asked the people involved to attend confession because I imagine regardless of the situation that as Catholics they felt bad both for the girl and for the lives they were forced to terminate for the sake of the girl.

So its not the religion's fault? Just the bishop's? how much religion do you think the bishop is influenced by? None at all??

edit: and let's not leave out the crucial point of brazil's anti-abortion laws, brought to you once again by religious indoctrination. the bishop might have made the call, but he is merely the one at the pointy end of the cesspool of "moderate" belief.

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Originally posted by josh4 The Australian Christian Lobby (ACL) today called for bipartisan support for the Federal Government’s plans to filter the Internet at service provider level, saying that in the interests of children this issue should be placed above party politics.

nobody cares what they think and they have virtually no influence in politics. they wouldn't have even known about the plan had we (the rest of the rational part of the country) not been kicking up such a stink about it.

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Last edited by pkcRAISTLIN on Mar-10-2009 at 04:13

There is no God, but this doesn't stop people from pretending as such.

If you think this is wrong, then keep in mind that the burden of proof has been upon you for thousands of years and you've only succeeded in providing reasons why nobody in their right mind should listen to you.

Are you even aware of how silly you look?

Don't roll your eyes at me, you look ridiculous.

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Originally posted by Aortik There is no God, but this doesn't stop people from pretending as such. If you think this is wrong, then keep in mind that the burden of proof has been upon you for thousands of years and you've only succeeded in providing reasons why nobody in their right mind should listen to you. Are you even aware of how silly you look? Don't roll your eyes at me, you look ridiculous.

Nobody can prove or disprove the existence of a creator god. Your point is moot.

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Originally posted by Krypton Nobody can prove or disprove the existence of a creator god. Your point is moot.

Whilst this is certainly true, one camp is a little more complicated than that.

Atheist:
there is no god.

Theist:
there is a god.
And he believes this
And this
And this
And this
And this
He wants you to behave like this
Will do this to you if you don’t

Etc etc etc

Now, tell me again who the burden of proof is on again????

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