^ thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, I'm quite familiar with Mississauga, and Brampton. At my old company, I had a group of around 35 Indian guys driving trucks for me. GREAT group of people, but being out in the town with them, you could see how they did have their own little shadow society. However, they made great efforts to reach out to everyone, and share some of their cultural identity instead of trying to impose it. I feel very fortunate for having wored in that environment since it taught me a lot about multiculturalism and the good things that can come of it if everyone makes the effort and nobody takes anything for granted. The younger guys all wanted to be ballers, and get the flashy stuff but without having to work hard for it. You could see the older guys leaning on them, and showing them that lazy would not lead to success. It was impressive.

You're right about the sense of entitlement that certain elements of immigrant populations anywhere share. It's sad because this belief ends up becomming hereditary and passed down through generations until nobody remembers what working for a living is.

Here in Amsterdam, you're right about the travellers and immigrants smoking more pot at coffeeshops than the locals. I think the locals (if they smoke) do so at home. They just buy in the shops. Some of the shops that aren't right in the centre do cater to a more immigrant clientele and serve as more of a place to hang out, play some pool etc. than to just smoke pot.

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Paul

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 Actually, Saudi arabia has enclosed towns set up for families of western oil workers so westerners (i) can continue to live by their own cultural norms, (ii) can live in safety, and (iii) don't attempt to demand cultural accomodation by saudis that could change the muslim culture. Imagine if we could set up enclosed towns specifically for muslims within the US! While the circumstances are different, it's a concept no muslim immigrant would tolerate (i don't believe most americans would tolerate it either). Just goes to show which culture is more accepting and tolerant (which is so evident it doesn't even need to be said).

Those enclosed towns would be called "labor camps" or "detainment camps" if they were in the US.

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quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi First off, alot of these demands by immigrants sprout from this mentality that they are going to milk the world for all that its worth, since they feel they got dealt a shitty hand. In Sweden, I know a few families that choose not to work and just live on welfare, as they feel entitled for their previous suffering. Its tough to see the children emerge in this environment, feeling so marginalized(perhaps by beleifs passed down from parental figures) that they become punks indeed, a self-fulfilling prophecy. You are probably familiar with Mississauga, this city is a perfect case for this phenomena of second generation immigrants(many from the islamic world). It is somewhat of a teenage wasteland, but the kids I know have great hearts, they are just misguided and oblivious. The Islamic movements have a track record taking a mile when you give them an inch, and red flags of racism and prejudice will go up if anyone tries to contain them-as was previously mentioned. The headscarf case in France was a big debate in the middle east, and I side with rules of the host nation. We must make it clear to immigrants that they are leaving their state for another, and must adhere to the existing culture. If not, they will be ripping away at the very fabric that made them want to come in the first place. I still sympathize with immigrants(i was a refugee myself), I remember having a crew with a bosniak and a cuban in elementary school, and I do remember cases of hatred even at that age. I could definately see the progression towards anarchist punkdom. Still, I hold it that they are always victims of their circumstance, it is a confusing ass existence. To this day it bothers me on the things in life I may miss out on compared to someone who grew up in more of a consistently stable environment. It frustrates me the most when people take their home countries for granted. Funny you should mention AMS, when I was there i met alot of the immigrants in the coffee shops, and someone told me that the white Dutch are actually less inclined to puff than the immigrant class.

Great post. Agreed. I know some Muslim Bosniaks who are very nationalistic, with so much hatred in their hearts. I've seen Cubans who wear their nationalist paraphernelia every day, and show how they feel about it (if Cuba is so great, why dont they move back?).

Also I agree with much of what jerZ said.

Indeed, cultural values and laws shouldn't be changed - immigrants all around the world need to embrace and respect the values and the system of the country which accepted them. I am sure that fundamentalists would not like it if some of us came to their countries and told them to change things around.

Just like I dont want us to force Afghanistan to rewrite their system and culture, no matter how primitive it may appear to some of us Westerners - obviously a significant number of Afghans are against a number of democratic principles. They see our society as decadent. In the end, assimilation is a poor strategy, let Afghans build their own future - forcing them will only make it worse.

And I am critically against these groups enforcing their systems and beliefs on our society.

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quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Great post. Agreed. I know some Muslim Bosniaks who are very nationalistic, with so much hatred in their hearts. I've seen Cubans who wear their nationalist paraphernelia every day, and show how they feel about it (if Cuba is so great, why dont they move back?). Also I agree with much of what jerZ said. Indeed, cultural values and laws shouldn't be changed - immigrants all around the world need to embrace and respect the values and the system of the country which accepted them. I am sure that fundamentalists would not like it if some of us came to their countries and told them to change things around. Just like I dont want us to force Afghanistan to rewrite their system and culture, no matter how primitive it may appear to some of us Westerners - obviously a significant number of Afghans are against a number of democratic principles. They see our society as decadent. In the end, assimilation is a poor strategy, let Afghans build their own future - forcing them will only make it worse. And I am critically against these groups enforcing their systems and beliefs on our society.

Good points all around.

And yeah, the extreme counter example would be western whitey with his hot wifey moving to Dubai and walking around wearing typical western hot weather clothes (her in a tank top and skirt and him in shorts and a wife beater (lol - no pun intended relative to the topic at hand, ha). This fictional couple would be brought before the ethics police and charged with a fine and deported (at least) or jailed (or beaten - at worst).

Agreed on the assimilation strategy being off-mark. I think since 2001 NATO has lost focus on why it's there - to get Bin Laden and the baddies. Now, NATO is all about assimilation (to a certain degree) and no surprise they're meeting resistance from the locals.

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Paul

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse Good points all around. And yeah, the extreme counter example would be western whitey with his hot wifey moving to Dubai and walking around wearing typical western hot weather clothes (her in a tank top and skirt and him in shorts and a wife beater (lol - no pun intended relative to the topic at hand, ha). This fictional couple would be brought before the ethics police and charged with a fine and deported (at least) or jailed (or beaten - at worst).

actually Dubai is really lenient towards that kind of dress for the westerners, especially in the nightclub scene-with the guys going all uber guido, and the girls have a great liberty to dress slutty. I even have this picture with this young Defacto Hezbollah member(he was 18 in summer 06, and took up a militia stance to defend his neighbourhood in Tyre) posing with two american ladies in skimpy bikinis on the public beach....lol

But the public displays of affection would get you into the trouble you mentioned..if you are making out in a club the bouncers would ask you to stop. A friend of mine in HS was making out in the cinema with his GF, and the Dubai version of the gestapo grabbed him(an arab) out of nowhere and threw him in the slammer for a night or 2(she was American and was actually just escorted home).

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Those enclosed towns would be called "labor camps" or "detainment camps" if they were in the US.

haha.. true. And Jerz, I hope you weren't saying this is the type of culture that is accepting:


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meh... Muslims.... Demand tolerance but give none.....

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi actually Dubai is really lenient towards that kind of dress for the westerners, especially in the nightclub scene-with the guys going all uber guido, and the girls have a great liberty to dress slutty. I even have this picture with this young Defacto Hezbollah member(he was 18 in summer 06, and took up a militia stance to defend his neighbourhood in Tyre) posing with two american ladies in skimpy bikinis on the public beach....lol But the public displays of affection would get you into the trouble you mentioned..if you are making out in a club the bouncers would ask you to stop. A friend of mine in HS was making out in the cinema with his GF, and the Dubai version of the gestapo grabbed him(an arab) out of nowhere and threw him in the slammer for a night or 2(she was American and was actually just escorted home).

To be honest, I just pulled Dubai out of my ass as an example. Good to hear they're lenient enough to allow some fun inside the clubs.

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Paul

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer IDF should be on that list too.

Problem is, I'm within the parameters of the law, yours is a wish.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse ^ thanks for sharing that. Yeah, I'm quite familiar with Mississauga, and Brampton. At my old company, I had a group of around 35 Indian guys driving trucks for me. GREAT group of people, but being out in the town with them, you could see how they did have their own little shadow society. However, they made great efforts to reach out to everyone, and share some of their cultural identity instead of trying to impose it. I feel very fortunate for having wored in that environment since it taught me a lot about multiculturalism and the good things that can come of it if everyone makes the effort and nobody takes anything for granted. The younger guys all wanted to be ballers, and get the flashy stuff but without having to work hard for it. You could see the older guys leaning on them, and showing them that lazy would not lead to success. It was impressive. You're right about the sense of entitlement that certain elements of immigrant populations anywhere share. It's sad because this belief ends up becomming hereditary and passed down through generations until nobody remembers what working for a living is. Here in Amsterdam, you're right about the travellers and immigrants smoking more pot at coffeeshops than the locals. I think the locals (if they smoke) do so at home. They just buy in the shops. Some of the shops that aren't right in the centre do cater to a more immigrant clientele and serve as more of a place to hang out, play some pool etc. than to just smoke pot.

I have to say of all the 'immigrant' people that I've dealt with, the Indian people are one of the greatest to get along with - Trinidadians (aka 'Trinis') are high up there too.
I've yet to meet an Indian or Trinis that have had issues integrating in Canada (other than the weather).
In fact, most are quite industrious.
It's very much a mentality and way of thinking that's the problem with the others.
It's not like they don't have the same opportunity as any other immigrant, however there is obviously a very large mindset differential...
One could argue (and would probably be right) in saying it's the very reason we have people who are native to our land that are either rich or poor...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss haha.. true. And Jerz, I hope you weren't saying this is the type of culture that is accepting:

I was simply saying it is clearly evident our culture is more accepting, which is 'clearly evident' by the fact that we don't send our immigrant populations to live in enclosed camps (we actually allow them to live among us).

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium [COLOR=FF7F50] These people piss me off. Why did they come to Canada if they hate so much the things that make Canada the country that it is.

You have to blame the English-Canadian multi-culturalism policy, immigration agents actually tell immigrants that they can come here and live their lives as they wish. That they can retain their language and customs and no one will bother them. On immigration promotional material, you see people of all origins, hassidic jews, Indian, Muslim, etc in predominance, as if the majority of this country is like that.

What do you expect? they come here and want what they have been promised to, and exercice their rights with all the legislation tools out there, including the increasingly annoying Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

In other countries, like the USA, the melting pot policy is used. How often do you hear an immigrant claim proudly that he's a Canadian?? Can you say the same for immigrants in the USA?

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