quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Free Master Kush for 6 months?

he's a good friend and ex-brother in law. also an ex-tweaker btw. it nearly killed him.

It's interesting to consider, that is for sure. And if we are to consider a tradition in the opium trade, then we must also keep in mind that heroin is derived from the very same plant.

The only certain thing about drugs is that the market is immense and shall likely never show a recessive trend. People have relied on drugs for thousands of years and the collective dependency is, in turn, showing no sign of slowing down, either.

There is much to gain, but the element of loss has always remained the same.

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo also an ex-tweaker btw. it nearly killed him.

I know all-too-many of those.

/sips a Red Bull

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On It's interesting to consider, that is for sure. And if we are to consider a tradition in the opium trade, then we must also keep in mind that heroin is derived from the very same plant. The only certain thing about drugs is that the market is immense and shall likely never show a recessive trend. People have relied on drugs for thousands of years and the collective dependency is, in turn, showing no sign of slowing down, either. There is much to gain, but the element of loss has always remained the same.

Exactly. The drugs themselves prey on two key human weaknesses: greed (lack of remorse shown by dealers / pushers etc) & escapism (people have always used drugs to escape, however briefly, from normality)

Some are a lot more harmful than others

___________________
Paul

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse Exactly. The drugs themselves prey on two key human weaknesses: greed (lack of remorse shown by dealers / pushers etc) & escapism (people have always used drugs to escape, however briefly, from normality) Some are a lot more harmful than others

It's almost even more than this though. Dealers are simply users who turn a profit, really. That's not always true, but in my experience, it's true enough to be a rule.

It is even more than exploitation though. Drugs are a lifestyle. Greed and the need for escapism are consistent among every human society, but I think that the resilience of drugs is due to religiosity. People believe they can alleviate their situation - whether this means escaping from the pain of life or escaping from the pain of leading a life devoid of purpose, people subscribe to a drug much in the same way they would an ideal or dogma. This isn't to say that drugs and specific religious institutions have anything in common - more so the fundamentals of religious thought and dependency on substances have a number of parallels, apart from chemical addiction, of course. The ability to alter one's reality and consciousness of the world he lives in (and probably takes for granted) seem to attract both camps, even if it is merely an obstacle of understanding which prohibits an end (and perpetuates use).

In this regard, I think it's interesting to note that both drugs and religion are seemingly necessary aspects of the human condition as we know it; but one is incorrigibly illegal, whereas the other is inextricably essential to our sense of law in the first place.

And if the extent of harm could be any argument against this, I urge people to consider the nature of 'harm'.

Awwwww yuh, I'm second-guessing everything here. Fuck your establishment!

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

^ Excellent points! Well said. I hadn't really thought of the religious parallels at all.

___________________
Paul

What's true of all laws imposed by any ruling power is that they are only enforced when the perceived costs outweigh the perceived benefits of not enforcing them.

I would be interested in seeing the impact of legalising drugs, and seeing how much of the problem simply disappears. Looking at tobacco - it costs the health system billions, but brings in slightly more billions in tax revenue to offset the perceived cost.

Right or wrong, the market is regulated like any product, and you kind of know what you're going to get when you buy a pack of cigs. Making them illegal will simply push it underground, and turn it into a dirtier industry than it already is.


I probably should qualify that i'm not a user of illegal drugs, nor usually do I associate with people who do.

___________________
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire

Two words: Tobacco Lobby.

___________________

Drugs are illegal because of religious and conservative influence in politics and because some men have big dicks, as Q pointed out earlier. What politician in his/her right mind would consider reversing the drug war - imagine the votes lost (drugs aren't that popular among the public). Thats why even though some politicians know the war has failed, they will not address the issue because they like being in power, and touching such constroversial issues can kill their careers, so they don't give a shit a result.

Prohibition failed, and this "war" is failing, too. Looking all around, its so obvious. Thousands of deaths in Mexico each each due to competition in supplying United Stated with drugs. Gangstaz and criminals have turned selling of drugs such as marijuana as business, and they don't even have to finish school - whats the purpose? They can now afford extremely expensive stereos, cars, homes - I've seen it over here as well. Keeping marijuana illegal is helping the criminals thrive.

Its due to politics. It all comes down to such instristic details as leftist guerillas growing and selling drugs to fund their resistance, and that trickles all the way down to their American consumers. You see, legalizing any of these illegal drugs is like "giving in" to the likes of FARC, which American politicians can't swallow.

You may think that the government is stupid, but there are reasons for the drug war. Someone's benefiting. If it was all bad, they would have stopped it long ago. It would be much cheaper if they legalized some of the less detrimental drugs like marijuana, save a lot of money and keep those caught with possession out of prison - jails are for real criminals!

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

lebez zingged it with the Tobbacco lobbyists. They are massive contibutors to the war on drugs, and will go to extreme lengths to keep illegal drugs illegal, especially marijuana-the two can be seen as substitute goods.

there was some ridiculous testimonies in 1937 that led to and the criminlization of cannabis specifically, and its a shame that since then due to political reasons they can't overturn this law that was founded on untruths. How come they were able to come out and reverse prohibition when it wasn't working, but the same can't be done for the war on drugs? Perhaps it lies with the fact that a large amount of poliicians as well as citizens were closet drinkers allowing the movement to snowball really fast.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Its due to politics. It all comes down to such instristic details as leftist guerillas growing and selling drugs to fund their resistance, and that trickles all the way down to their American consumers. You see, legalizing any of these illegal drugs is like "giving in" to the likes of FARC, which American politicians can't swallow.

Yeah, i fully agree, when obama had that online press conference and everyone was laughing at the concept that a marijuana tax could help the economy, and he said no himself-that was clearly a political answer and not an economic one. The large misconception about legalization is that it is not giving in to these leftist movements at all, it will actually devistate a large part of their demand that will be diverted to local US goverment sanctioned suppliers, just like the ending of the prohibition wasn't giving in to the mafia's empire.

There are obvious varying degrees of drugs-and some illegal drugs are overlooked in terms of their potential use in a therapeutic setting, particularly concerning certain psychadelics and mdma.

If we as a society are going to keep the most dangeorous drug users in jail (heroin, methamphetamine, intravenous cociane), their "jail" should be in the form of a rehabilition center that they can't leave for a certain period of time. they should be treated like anyone else in the mental health sector. I cant imagine someone going into the slammer busted on meth charges high on meth, and think about doing non-meth related activities when they get out. A dark world has become much darker, and a negative prison stint can greatly turn their condition for the worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Drugs are illegal because of religious and conservative influence in politics and because some men have big dicks, as Q pointed out earlier. What politician in his/her right mind would consider reversing the drug war - imagine the votes lost (drugs aren't that popular among the public). Thats why even though some politicians know the war has failed, they will not address the issue because they like being in power, and touching such constroversial issues can kill their careers, so they don't give a shit a result. Prohibition failed, and this "war" is failing, too. Looking all around, its so obvious. Thousands of deaths in Mexico each each due to competition in supplying United Stated with drugs. Gangstaz and criminals have turned selling of drugs such as marijuana as business, and they don't even have to finish school - whats the purpose? They can now afford extremely expensive stereos, cars, homes - I've seen it over here as well. Keeping marijuana illegal is helping the criminals thrive. Its due to politics. It all comes down to such instristic details as leftist guerillas growing and selling drugs to fund their resistance, and that trickles all the way down to their American consumers. You see, legalizing any of these illegal drugs is like "giving in" to the likes of FARC, which American politicians can't swallow. You may think that the government is stupid, but there are reasons for the drug war. Someone's benefiting. If it was all bad, they would have stopped it long ago. It would be much cheaper if they legalized some of the less detrimental drugs like marijuana, save a lot of money and keep those caught with possession out of prison - jails are for real criminals!

I completely agree. I would love to see all these stupid dealers go down & stop making much profit bc they actually have competition. The whole chaos in Mexico to finally die down, so many innocent people have been caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. Illegal Marijuana IS helping the criminals thrive. Those who abuse the drug shouldn't be wasting their time in jail- they need help with substance abuse, I don't think their criminals.

I mean honestly it might sound stupid but I think they should just legalize all drugs! (and prostitution but that's a different argument) Let the gov take care of manufacturing it & sell it for a really cheap price! Let the gov regulate it. The dealers wil finally have some fucking competition to worry about.
I mean take alcohol for example, wasn't that a drug? Just how there is an age to drink and cops can pull you over for a sobriety test- couldn't they do the same with drugs? I mean they could develop a whole new system where people who have high skilled jobs like working with machinery, doctor, dentist, pharmacist, etc, etc, everyone must agree to taking periodic drug tests- if they find a substance, then you can't work! That way you don't endanger other people.

I'm sure in the beginning there would probably be a lot of problems with the new system but after a while I think the craze would just die down. I mean look at Amsterdam, when I was there yeah I sure as hell saw a lot of people walking around with their eyes in the back of their head but not EVERYONE. It was actually a nice, peaceful, laid-back city- people know wtf they're doing by now (of course with some exceptions).Just because drugs are accessible doesn't mean we all chose to do it.


I just believe that when you make something 'illegal' wtf do people do? They find a way to get a hold of that thing & do whatever they're supposed to not do. Look at our youth in the U.S.- drinking age is 21 but we all know everyone below 21 is drinking. The problem is their not drinking in moderation, they think it might be their only chance to drink this much- they get wasted & here they go vomiting, or killing someone else in the car, or causing their family grief because of some freak accident. OR, they're 'smart' wait until they're 21, & drink themselves into alcohol poisoning in Cancun. Why do they do this? It's that desperation for doing that thing that they're not allowed to do..

Now let's look at Germany. At the age of 16 you can buy a glass of beer at a bar (bars aren't ugly & shady in Germany- their actually family-orientated lol). But my point is, these kids don't see drinking as BAD or 'you can't drink till you're 21'. Right when they think they might be interested in beer, they're allowed to try- they try it & ok no big deal. Been there, done that kind of deal. By the time they can legally drink hard liquor, they could really care less lol here's another thought, they freaking have the Autobahn, do they have as many drunk drivers as we do making pancakes out of themselves on the road?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think when you prohibit something from someone, it's human nature to go do it- & in most cases, not in moderation.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Why is anything illegal, for that matter? What is the nature of 'crime'?

i'm pretty sure you wouldn't like if people could eliminate (i.e., kill) anyone at will without consequence.

The purpose of making things illegal depends on the system of governance in the country. In well functioning democratic systems laws (at least those limiting personal behaviors) are merely a reflection of the collective will of citizens defining the actions society deems objectionable. It doesn't always work quite that well. For example, NJ has some dumb ass law that a person can't "annoy others," which seems to be largely arbitrary, and in my view clearly unconstitutional because the definition of annoying is different for everyone (but the penalty is too small for anyone to incur the expense to contest the legality of the law). In totalitarian systems, laws limiting behaviors are obviously a way to control people.

with that said, i believe certain drugs (weed, cocaine, etc...) are illegal because the big pharmaceutical companies don't have patents on the production of the illicit drugs. When a company (Solvay Pharmaceuticals, i believe) synthesized the main chemical in marijuana (THC) and patented the production, the use of Marijuana become legal if it was ingested in a pill form (called marinol). The same can be said for heroine (all the -ocet, -odene, and -fine drugs), and cocaine ( all the -aine drugs). If access to these drugs was easier, we wouldn't need to buy as many drugs from the pharmaceutical companies.