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Originally posted by EgosXII if you care about the facts you must have proof...?

All the musicians I think are the greatest, in any genre, have started in their early teens at the latest.

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production especially is not really the same as music anyway...

Ugh. Okay, I admit, I am not talking about the ability to handle compression and EQs. I am talking about writing melodies and harmonies mostly. You know, music not engineering.

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oh and there are a number of examples... i'm pretty sure thom yorke has no training whatsoever, and is a brilliant singer, pianist and guitarist... and has made an album thru mostly digital means...

Yorke started playing guitar at age seven. I am not talking about just formal lessons btw, lots of really great musicians have had no formal classes. Just when you start making or playing music.

Trust me, I would love to believe otherwise, that I could be the next Beethoven or even Thom Yorke by practicing like crazy even though I only started making music at age 19. But I just don't think that is the truth.

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Originally posted by EgosXII production is a technical skill... i don't think having a basic understanding of an instrument has that much to do with being a good producer

Sure enough, I don't think anyone would deny that you can become a good producer with lots of practice.

But being a good composer/songwriter is a different matter entirely.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles All the musicians I think are the greatest, in any genre, have started in their early teens at the latest. Ugh. Okay, I admit, I am not talking about the ability to handle compression and EQs. I am talking about writing melodies and harmonies mostly. You know, music not engineering. Yorke started playing guitar at age seven. I am not talking about just formal lessons btw, lots of really great musicians have had no formal classes. Just when you start making or playing music. Trust me, I would love to believe otherwise, that I could be the next Beethoven or even Thom Yorke by practicing like crazy even though I only started making music at age 19. But I just don't think that is the truth.

i guess i don't understand how playing an instrument could be anything apart from practice though... starting early just means you've had more time to practice... and so, OBVIOUSLY are going to have a head-start on people starting later... but there's no supernatural "music gene" that was activated in people who started younger compared to those who started later..

i guess i'm saying i think that it's not untrue what you're saying, but i think you're looking at it from some bizarre biological angle..

by your logic playing guitar means you can play any instrument better... but couldn't you just become good at music by just listening to it, if this is the case?? where's the line between somehow having your switch flicked by musical experience from a young age and every person's exposure to music, even if they don't play an instrument till later?

surely your theory is based on early exposure to music.. if you just sat there listening to music, understanding structure, how is that so different than playing a guitar?

i do see what you're saying, and i don't mean to be trolly about it all, but i just think that it's not some magical act of evolution that allows people to be good at music, but devotion to it...

simply: people who start younger are more likely to have a real devotion to music because it has been a part of their lives for so long... this doesn't exclude people coming to it later, but it does mean that it's probably less likely people would come to it later because music is such a sacrifice, and unless you're used to such a huge sacrifice, you're probably not going to get much out of it... not sure if that makes sense...

if you're an adult with a full time job, it's harder to do music than it is for a person who already learnt the basics as a nipper, this doesn't mean the person with a full time job CAN'T learn it, it SIMPLY means that they are going to have to invest the same amount of time as the kid, but with the added conflicts of every day life.

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For the last time, I am not saying people "can't learn" music if they come to it later or even that they can't be quite good, so you can stop reading me that way. I am saying they will never be among the best.

Yes, I am approaching this from a somewhat "biological" angle and guess what -- people who have early music training (playing an instrument, not just listening) have different brain structure from people who take it up later. There is a window of opportunity beyond which you will not develop the same brain adaptations as someone who started early. Yes you will get better, yes you will be able to do things that impress people and write enjoyable music if you work hard enough, but it is not the same as someone who was raised up in it.

i started playing doom when i was 5 thats why im the best at every fps ever

u dont got these brain adaptions bitchez

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Originally posted by EgosXII i guess i don't understand how playing an instrument could be anything apart from practice though... starting early just means you've had more time to practice... and so, OBVIOUSLY are going to have a head-start on people starting later... but there's no supernatural "music gene" that was activated in people who started younger compared to those who started later..

Actually, it is fairly well documented that learning new skills becomes more difficult as we age. You tend to learn at a faster rate when you are young because your brain is still developing. So in the case of starting young learning a new skill, it is not only a time advantage you gain, but also the rate at which you can learn.

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Originally posted by Eric J Actually, it is fairly well documented that learning new skills becomes more difficult as we age. You tend to learn at a faster rate when you are young because your brain is still developing. So in the case of starting young learning a new skill, it is not only a time advantage you gain, but also the rate at which you can learn.

Doesnt this apply mostly to skills that requires physical attributes ?

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Originally posted by Fledz I completely disagree. What you're basically saying is that if you haven't been practicing music since and early age, you will never attain the highest levels. That is absolutely untrue and I can't say I could possibly disagree with it anymore than I do.

how many adults do you know have 10 years to practice 8 hours a day every day?
Somethings are impossible to do except when you are young and don't have to pay bills. As harder as it will be because of the brain and how it is less malleable, just finding the time will be impossible if you have a life.

But things like production and song writting don't require the same amount of time as becoming a a concert pianist so there are lots of options one can do well and not have to do that kind of time.

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Originally posted by Subtle Doesnt this apply mostly to skills that requires physical attributes ?

Everything I have read refers to learning skills, cognitive skills like language, reasoning, etc. Motor skills are included as well. It is easier and faster for your brain to form new pathways at a younger age. This make perfect sense if you think about it, because we learn at such an accelerated rate our very youngest ages, like how to walk, talk, muscle control and movement, etc. Our very basic skills.

I am paraphrasing, of course.

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Originally posted by EgosXII by your logic playing guitar means you can play any instrument better... but couldn't you just become good at music by just listening to it, if this is the case?? where's the line between somehow having your switch flicked by musical experience from a young age and every person's exposure to music, even if they don't play an instrument till later? surely your theory is based on early exposure to music.. if you just sat there listening to music, understanding structure, how is that so different than playing a guitar? .

instruments share alot in common so yes, learning one instrument will make the other one alot easier. A just listening to music activates different parts of the brain than actively understanding it. So no, exposure to music, although helpful does not equal the same sort of brain use as understanding music , disseminating it and recreating it.

good thing i started producing just before i was 15. I'm 21 now.

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Originally posted by meriter Your primary focus should be making good music. That's all. No one gives a shit how you do it. And the people that do are fags.

Starting early is no guarantee, you know. It just helps a lot.