few but some do and i would rather just use one framework that works for more cases. It isn't to say i never say a piece is in minor. If there is a dominant push to a minor key , then yes but I never consider a natural minor as a minor key because it can already be represented including the tonal functioning of the chord by an already established framework.

As far as most saying it is minor, I agree but i think you will find most people's system of organization peculiar to trance whereas I would rather use a framework that works with every tonal scheme in every style of music. (By every I mean most) . I just prefer frameworks that are more universal and flexible. I wouldn't say it is even something they teach at school. Some phds will agree with you, most wont. I just prefer systems that are simpler and work most of the time. I remember having this debate with you a few months ago! lol If someone analyzed it like you did, i would not say it was wrong because i would understand how they were hearing it.

Last edited by RichieV on Jan-17-2010 at 23:13

I'm not hearing D minor at all, especially since the bass is playing Bb for that chord.. if it was playing A in the bass then I'd say D minor too, since the vocals are at a high A for that part and the saw plays a D, but the Bb definitely makes it a IV7 chord.

I do know a good bit of theory but some of what was just discussed is a bit beyond me.. still, I really can't see this in a minor key at all.

it does play A( an error you made which i thaught was a typo) but it is a minor V chord ( if you analyze it in D minor) which is unconventional for a tonal framework. It is pointless arguing which system is better as there really isn't' any benefit other than common usage. Like language I suppose. More people speak english than french but that doesn't mean one is better than the other. Poor analogy but it sort of gets to the point.

Both frameworks work. I just prefer mine.

Last edited by RichieV on Jan-17-2010 at 23:21

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV Both frameworks work. I just prefer mine.

Fair enough!

At any rate, I threw together a couple of MIDI clips for the OP with the verse chords/melody and outro chords/melody (right-click>save as):

http://www.cryophonik.com/files/sirens_midi.mid

http://www.cryophonik.com/files/sirens_outro_midi.mid

(please disregard the choppy playing!)



edit: oops - I realized after I uploaded it that I left a chord out - fixed.

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Last edited by cryophonik on Jan-17-2010 at 23:56

i think he wanted the first few bars of the breakdown



midi

seriously i can't thank you guys enough rich, cryo, kys you been really helpful i'm gonna literally spend my time learning about the stuff that went over my head but for the most part i can understand better now! I think what i obviously didn't understand was the additional orchestration adding the extensions like sometimes there are extra pads adding 2nds and 4ths while omitting the 5th etc. I an not at a hearing level that i would have ever been able to work that out alone. =)

I love this place sometimes!

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Processing a highly structured and complex pattern of sensory input as a unified percept of "music" is probably one of the most elaborate features of the human brain.....understanding how music is perceived and how it may elicit intense sensations is far from being understood.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV

Sorry for the OT, but what score editor do you use RichieV? Sonar's staff editor pretty much sucks and I'm wondering if there is something out there that can integrate with it, or open MIDI clips directly from Sonar, effectively replacing Sonar's staff editor.

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i use sibelius. I didn't think sonar hard a score editor. They all pretty much suck with logic's being the less sucky of the bunch. I don't even know why cubase or logic haven't bought sibelius or finale yet. It seems like the one feature that alot of people would like but nobody does it yet. They try to implement their own audio interface but they both fail miserably. Kinda how the DAW's implement their own score editors which suck as well.

As far as Sibelius vs Finale, most pros do use Finale but I think it is because it was alot better about 5 years ago. I think they are pretty even now and I think the work flow in Sibelius is much better. It is all about learning shortcut keys so you can input notes faster than you can play them.

Last edited by RichieV on Jan-18-2010 at 01:11

Yeah, Sonar has had a staff editor for many versions, but it's pretty bad and consistently gets the most complaints and requests for updates over on the Cakewalk forums.

I'm pretty sure that I occasionally get offers to buy Sibelius at a discount through the Cakewalk store, but I just looked around and didn't see anything.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV ...and I think the work flow in Sibelius is much better. It is all about learning shortcut keys so you can input notes faster than you can play them.

That's what I'd like - I still usually play the parts in, but I like to go in and fix my playing after the fact. Sonar's editor is just not usable though - it can never find the right key, so it has accidentals everywhere, etc., so I do most of my editing in the piano roll, which I prefer much less. It looks like Sibelius can be Rewired into Sonar, so I may have to look into that.

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no i don't think it is possible yet. I think the problem is that the score editors always assume that every value is exact so if you are 1/128 off , it will reflect in the score editor. They should let you edit a time window so that you can alter pitches more easily. As far as timing, i think piano roll is probably easier as scores don't really deal well with imperfect or humanized timing.

to Sonic

I think part of the problem is that when you learn theory like you have recently , you focus too much on vertical chords instead of horizontal voices which happen to form chords from their movement. You probably did alot of choral exercises which on the one hand help you learn chord progressions but they sort of brain wash you into thinking one way as to what notes are allows and what notes aren't and their respective voice leading. You probably only deal with 7ths resolving to 3rds as well so you tend to not include any of the more colourful tones found in modern music.

Practice keeping notes common from one vertical chord to the next to add some prepared dissonance and also try different omitting notes from chords or voicing them with another instrument. For example, you will find most people omit the 5 from a chord which makes sense because it is the first note in the overtone series after the octave of course.

Last edited by RichieV on Jan-18-2010 at 02:21

this thread is ill. Ive been studying "practical" music theory for awhile, and good trance just doesnt stay practical. Diatonic-fayl. Natural Minor- Fayl. I just discovered a custom scale, after years of piano rolling, that i accept as what real, serious, trance music gravitates to.

awhile back i saw a thread where somebody said Music Theory is not important anymore in dance music. Laff. Airbase, Mike Shiver, Blueman, and Akesson arent skipping it, and their tunes will never leave my wallet.

quote:

Originally posted by RichieV ... you will find most people omit the 5 from a chord which makes sense because it is the first note in the overtone series after the octave of course.

Yeah exactly. It's the 1st and 3rd notes that determine whether a triad is major or minor, so the 5th note is usually unnecessary, except in the case of diminished/augmented chords, which are rarely used in EDM.

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