Let the infighting and finger-pointing begin. Have there been any allegations of voter fraud yet?

As they say, it's much harder for the party in power to stay in power...

Oh, please. Give me a fucking break, just because this seat was lost for the democrat doesn't mean they lose their majority or something. If they wanted to, the Democrats could completely forget negotiations with the Republicans and pass whatever the fuck they want, seeing as how they have a bigger majority than Bush ever had. He seemed to get a lot of shit passed without even a notion of a problem.

17, do you realize how much Obama is trying to appease your party? For a while there, he almost considered removing the public option. For real, you're going to complain about his agenda? You should be grateful that he's even considering your party's opinions, seeing as how you guys blew it 8 years in a row.

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Originally posted by ziptnf Oh, please. Give me a fucking break, just because this seat was lost for the democrat doesn't mean they lose their majority or something. If they wanted to, the Democrats could completely forget negotiations with the Republicans and pass whatever the fuck they want, seeing as how they have a bigger majority than Bush ever had. He seemed to get a lot of shit passed without even a notion of a problem.

While true, I think you're failing to give enough attention to the significance of a perennial democratic senate seat being lost to a guy who was something like 20 points behind in the polls just a couple of weeks ago. It's significant in that it shows further rejection of the fiscal policies and legislative proposals that are being crammed down people's throats with such urgency. Majority or not, it's a huge upset and a lot of fringe democrats are likely to move back towards (or closer to) the center now, making the radical left-wing a bit less threatening. Health care is not going to get passed by reconciliation.

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17, do you realize how much Obama is trying to appease your party? For a while there, he almost considered removing the public option. For real, you're going to complain about his agenda? You should be grateful that he's even considering your party's opinions, seeing as how you guys blew it 8 years in a row.

This is bullshit. Obama and dems aren't appeasing anyone other than their own party to try to pass as much as they can while they can. IMHO, one of BO's biggest problems is that he's a piss-poor leader. He kind of sits back and lets the party squabble and then he weighs in with a speech. He's not taking a leadership role, he's letting the radical leftists in his party dictate his policy direction and it's a big reason his approval rating has fallen faster than just about any president on record after sweeping in on the hopeychangey thing that's going nowhere fast.

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Originally posted by The17sss You're telling me.... that the people in charge right now are not far left? Nancy Pelosi is moderate? Harry Reid? Barack Obama with the most liberal voting record in the Senate? They are barely liberal? I suppose the Pope is barely Catholic too. Crazy. This country is center-right... which is precisely WHY their agenda is being rejected; it is too far to the left. That isn't accurate at all. They tried to ram it through in the summer before anyone read it; even most of them admitted they didn't. And the more time that passed, the more details came out... and the more people didn't want it. It's not just Republicans that oppose it's substace... I mean, what do you think today's election in 3.5 to 1 Democrat Massachusetts was about? It's been solid for 2 months... support for Obamacare across all polls are between 35-42% in favor, and 52-60+ against. And it's like that in every state. The people don't want it, and they (government) don't care. I mean, Orwellian in the sense that they are omnipresent in all aspects of our lives. But legislating morality does come in to play; the healthcare issue is full of moral discussion. This is true... but if they go that route, and pass it against the will of the people they are supposed to represent, they don't deserve to govern, and that will play out in November for certain.

You think this country is center right. It actually is split right down the middle between left and right. Election 2000 hellooooo? They are pursuing healthcare reform because people DO want it. What people don't want is a watered down bill that hardly does anything. That's what it's becoming. Republicans are leading the Democrats on with all the so-called "compromise", but once the vote is done, they won't vote for it. I don't think the will of the people is the status quo. And if this passes, it certainly won't be against the will of the people, just the right wing.

As for legislating morality. The Republicans are the kings of legislating morality. No gay marriage. Maintaining Christian symbols on government buildings. Anti-women's reproductive rights. Pro-drug war (both parties guilty of that). Trying to teach creationism in classrooms. Must I go on? Healthcare reform's morality is a secondary point, not THE point, as Republicans constantly rely exclusively on.

Last edited by Communist on Jan-20-2010 at 18:37

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Originally posted by Shakka This is bullshit. Obama and dems aren't appeasing anyone other than their own party to try to pass as much as they can while they can. IMHO, one of BO's biggest problems is that he's a piss-poor leader. He kind of sits back and lets the party squabble and then he weighs in with a speech. He's not taking a leadership role, he's letting the radical leftists in his party dictate his policy direction and it's a big reason his approval rating has fallen faster than just about any president on record after sweeping in on the hopeychangey thing that's going nowhere fast.

You seem to think that all the president does is give speeches and blow smoke up everybody's ass. Do you realize how busy that man is? He's got more than one incredibly important thing on his plate. He campaigns for the health bill, visits congress constantly to make sure that they are doing what he wants, and manages two wars and a failing economy at the same time. What do you expect from the man? Do you think that he represents congress and should just be able to make everything perfect? At least he's not on vacation like Bush would be right now.

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Originally posted by Shakka While true, I think you're failing to give enough attention to the significance of a perennial democratic senate seat being lost to a guy who was something like 20 points behind in the polls just a couple of weeks ago. It's significant in that it shows further rejection of the fiscal policies and legislative proposals that are being crammed down people's throats with such urgency. Majority or not, it's a huge upset and a lot of fringe democrats are likely to move back towards (or closer to) the center now, making the radical left-wing a bit less threatening. Health care is not going to get passed by reconciliation.

Btw, I don't want you to think I'm some brainless liberal. I hated that bitch, I didn't want her to represent my party as it was. I feel like she would have been a shitty senator and a weak ass attempt to carry out Ted Kennedy's dream.

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Originally posted by ziptnf You seem to think that all the president does is give speeches and blow smoke up everybody's ass. Do you realize how busy that man is? He's got more than one incredibly important thing on his plate. He campaigns for the health bill, visits congress constantly to make sure that they are doing what he wants, and manages two wars and a failing economy at the same time. What do you expect from the man? Do you think that he represents congress and should just be able to make everything perfect? At least he's not on vacation like Bush would be right now.

Yes, I know what presidents do. BO is the 44th one we've had and I don't think he's doing anything particularly special that no other president has done. Maybe a low blow, but it seemed fair game to me given all of the hype he got elected on. The reality is he's just another puppet president, even if he does wear a Superman leotard to bed.

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Originally posted by ziptnf Btw, I don't want you to think I'm some brainless liberal. I hated that bitch, I didn't want her to represent my party as it was. I feel like she would have been a shitty senator and a weak ass attempt to carry out Ted Kennedy's dream.

I don't think that about you. I don't think I know you well enough to draw any conclusions. I just got the impression you were downplaying the significance of a historical election upset. Yeah, Democrats still have a substantial majority in Congress, but they have to be feeling a bit off-kilter today and I bet a lot of blue-dogs are questioning their party's direction and their commitment to several legislative agendas.

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Originally posted by Shakka even if he does wear a Superman leotard to bed.

I thought Superman wore Obama pajamas

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Originally posted by Shakka I don't think that about you. I don't think I know you well enough to draw any conclusions. I just got the impression you were downplaying the significance of a historical election upset. Yeah, Democrats still have a substantial majority in Congress, but they have to be feeling a bit off-kilter today and I bet a lot of blue-dogs are questioning their party's direction and their commitment to several legislative agendas.

I'm not downplaying it, it's a huge bummer that we lost that seat, especially considering how important it was. I'm pissed that we didn't pick someone better to run, people aren't that stupid, it's not like that state would vote for some dumb broad just because she was a democrat. I feel like the DNC for Massachusetts should have done a bit more research or thinking before they let her take the wheel.

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From an opinion piece in the WSJ today:

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The sensible alternative would be for Democrats to concede how badly they have misread the mandate of their 2008 victory and the public mood. They were elected to fix the economy and to replace a tapped-out GOP, not to exhume and pass every dead 20th-century liberal dream.

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Yesterday's vote wasn't a repudiation of Mr. Obama's Presidency, or at least it needn't be. The President remains more popular than his policies, and voters want him to succeed. But they are also telling him he needs to steer a more moderate, less partisan course, returning to the pragmatism and comity that shaped his political rise but have vanished in his first, squandered year.

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Originally posted by Krypton If the Democrats are far left, Europe must be a Stalinist utopia.

Based on the opinions of the radical liberals on this site are on what "liberalism" is, I'd say that's hardly a stretch.

Tell us radical liberals what liberalism is. I'm dying to know.

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