quote:

Originally posted by mehta SYSTEM-J, you are definitely wrong about "downtempo" - house and techno both have tracks below 110bpm but they still retain their genre characteristics.

What's your point? "Downtempo" isn't a genre and so doesn't have any genre characteristics. You will find everyone from house and techno producers to drum 'n bass and progressive house guys making downtempo tracks. There are even downtempo rock songs.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

Fair enough, we disagree.

You think "downtempo" is a literal term whereas I see that it has genre characteristics. It can describe a great deal of music, all of which uses predominantly breakbeats, lower tempos, and "atmospheric" content.

Lots of music described as downtempo is aesthetically connected. To reduce it to a tempo signifier is inaccurate.

quote:

Originally posted by mehta Fair enough, we disagree. You think "downtempo" is a literal term whereas I see that it has genre characteristics. It can describe a great deal of music, all of which uses predominantly breakbeats, lower tempos, and "atmospheric" content. Lots of music described as downtempo is aesthetically connected. To reduce it to a tempo signifier is inaccurate.

Is it possible that a lot of the downtempo music you listen to is aesthetically connected?

Trouble is, breakbeats + low tempo + "atmospheric" = trip-hop, abstract hip-hop, ambient house, dub, dubstep, atmospheric drum 'n bass, psychill, world beat, progressive breaks, illbient...

The fact that slow tracks tend to be atmospheric and that producers tend to use gentle shuffly rhythms on these tracks doesn't make it some giant, interconnected genre.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

thanks for all your help guys.

___________________
Happiness is an occasional episode in the general drama of pain.- Thomas Hardy

"Have nothing in your home unless you know it to be useful or believe it to be beautiful." - John Ruskin (He was talking about records!)

quote:

Daniel Boorstin: The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Is it possible that a lot of the downtempo music you listen to is aesthetically connected?

Good question, but I don't really listen to much downtempo. I'm just defending its status here because you seem like someone who won't get too bothered from bouncing some ideas around.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The fact that slow tracks tend to be atmospheric and that producers tend to use gentle shuffly rhythms on these tracks doesn't make it some giant, interconnected genre.

I'm not talking about "gentle shuffly rhythms" - the easiest difference to notice between types of dance music is the kick pattern. house/techno/trance predominantly uses a kick on each quarter note - breaks don't. Pretty simple.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Trouble is, breakbeats + low tempo + "atmospheric" = trip-hop, abstract hip-hop, ambient house, dub, dubstep, atmospheric drum 'n bass, psychill, world beat, progressive breaks, illbient...

Psychill is a genre while downtempo is not? Atmospheric drum & bass and dubstep are low tempo? Ambient house is a type of breaks? Bizarre! You belie your authoritative knowledge with this paragraph.

You are right that downtempo includes a huge variety of subgenres & includes lots of mostly unrelated stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by mehta I'm not talking about "gentle shuffly rhythms" - the easiest difference to notice between types of dance music is the kick pattern. house/techno/trance predominantly uses a kick on each quarter note - breaks don't. Pretty simple.

I know exactly what you're talking about, and my point stands. Your claim has little basis, anyway. House, techno, disco, trance and most hardcore all use a kick on each quarter note. Doesn't make them one giant genre, does it?

quote:

Psychill is a genre while downtempo is not? Atmospheric drum & bass and dubstep are low tempo? Ambient house is a type of breaks? Bizarre! You belie your authoritative knowledge with this paragraph

1. Psychill is a clearly defined scene with noted labels and artists who frequently collaborate together and play the same events. That's a genre.

2. Atmospheric drum 'n bass is low tempo, typically between 75-90bpm. The breaks merely play in double time. Same with chilled dubstep - it's all composed at 70bpm.

3. Have you actually listened to the definitive ambient house records? The Orb's Adventures Beyond the Ultraworld? William Orbit's Strange Cargo? The KLF's Chill Out? Lots of breaks, very few 4/4 kicks. Don't think that the word "house" in the genre title means anything.

___________________
Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J House, techno, disco, trance and most hardcore all use a kick on each quarter note. Doesn't make them one giant genre, does it?

It's all closely related. There are huge differences in tempo, timbre, approaches to melody & harmony, but the basic beat pattern is a powerful defining force.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J 1. Psychill is a clearly defined scene with noted labels and artists who frequently collaborate together and play the same events. That's a genre.

You are describing a scene, not a genre. What are its definitive sonic characteristics?

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J 2. Atmospheric drum 'n bass is low tempo, typically between 75-90bpm. The breaks merely play in double time. Same with chilled dubstep - it's all composed at 70bpm.

Disagree. Dubstep hangs out somewhere between 125-150bpm. Drum & bass is generally 160+. Neither is low-tempo although sparse breaks can give that impression.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J 3. Have you actually listened to the definitive ambient house records? The Orb's Adventures Beyond the Ultraworld? William Orbit's Strange Cargo? The KLF's Chill Out? Lots of breaks, very few 4/4 kicks. Don't think that the word "house" in the genre title means anything.

OK, you are absolutely right about this - historically, "ambient house" is part of downtempo. I was thinking of more contemporary ambient house such as Foal or STL.

I think the problem we are having here is that you use scenes, seminal artists/albums, and history to define "genre" whereas I use a system based entirely on sound patterns.

quote:

Originally posted by Schadenfreude Ninja Tune > all of your mothers.

also Buck 65.

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