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Originally posted by The17sss I love the crazy knee jerk reaction to that Wikileaks movie. "The US Military are savage killers! ARRRRGH!!!" It's already been established that the video you're referring to was edited like crazy, and the release of the official CENTCOM report in its entirety proves it. I know it's embarrassing to admit you've been duped by a known anti-military propoganda organization, and you'll just attack me instead (and probably won't read the real report) but whatever. Read the truth if you dare. http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/...vestigation.pdf

we can sit here and argue semantics all day, but this is just an isolated incident in only one of the US's dubious conflicts since WWII. It points to a greater problem than just politicians/redneck soldiers, when civilian deaths are continuously swept under the rug and confined to history as a dismissive report.

I remember reading the words of a US paratrooper in WWII, Private Webster of the 101st Airborne, quoting that he didn't want the war to end quickly after D-Day. He rather of had the war last longer, so that the lessons of its brutality can be taken to the German people - who had remained relatively unscathed up to that point. Perhaps the US needs a bit of action on home soil before it comes to its senses..?
(and no, that's not me invoking Nazi Germany as a comparison to the US- but rather an attempt to find a way to circumvent the apathy that plagues the minds of US citizens when it comes to the lives of people other than themselves)

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A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss I love the crazy knee jerk reaction to that Wikileaks movie. "The US Military are savage killers! ARRRRGH!!!" It's already been established that the video you're referring to was edited like crazy, and the release of the official CENTCOM report in its entirety proves it. I know it's embarrassing to admit you've been duped by a known anti-military propoganda organization, and you'll just attack me instead (and probably won't read the real report) but whatever. Read the truth if you dare. http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/...vestigation.pdf

To be fair, they posted an edited version as well as the raw footage.

Watching the video, it is indeed an indicator that things are confusing in real time and without full context. Given that the helicopters were patrolling the area after reports of American troops being pinned down by small arms fire, I can understand why they are hyper-sensitive toward people carrying around guns - and lest we forget, there were at least a few weapons visible in the prelude to the shooting.

It's even more confusing when the photographer peeks around the corner to peer at the helicopter. Without the captions, ask yourself: what do you see? How would you have interpreted that situation?

I think Juan Cole has it right here:

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While the pilots who fired at apparently armed men (and at least 3 were actually armed) thought they were saving US ground troops who had been pinned down from men with small arms, they had less justification for firing on the van. Indeed, the latter action may have been a war crime since the van was trying to pick up the wounded and it is illegal to fire on the wounded and those hors de combat.

http://www.juancole.com/2010/04/wik...illing-of-2.htm

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the whole edited story is bogus, its a pathetic attempt by the new york times and washington post to discredit wikileaks. there's both a 38 minute full version and the edited version on the website. how people can be so deeply in denial about all of this is really disturbing. what if it were your family, in your country? do you really have that little compassion for you fellow human beings?

more of the same here -> http://www.truthout.org/iraq-war-ve...ke-care-us58378

fuck the troops, its their continued ignorance and hatred that allows this cycle to perpetuate itself. bush and his cronies may've gotten us into this but there are plenty of soldiers out there who still think going to iraq and killing unarmed women and children is fun sport. i hope you all get whats coming to you, this from a proud american.

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin Blame the politicians who sent those pilots to kill in the first place.

politicians don't pull triggers, its an all volunteer army. we have met the enemy, and he is us.

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Originally posted by Max Thomson the whole edited story is bogus, its a pathetic attempt by the new york times and washington post to discredit wikileaks. there's both a 38 minute full version and the edited version on the website. how people can be so deeply in denial about all of this is really disturbing. what if it were your family, in your country? do you really have that little compassion for you fellow human beings? more of the same here -> http://www.truthout.org/iraq-war-ve...ke-care-us58378 fuck the troops, its their continued ignorance and hatred that allows this cycle to perpetuate itself. bush and his cronies may've gotten us into this but there are plenty of soldiers out there who still think going to iraq and killing unarmed women and children is fun sport. i hope you all get whats coming to you, this from a proud american.

Yes, the NY Times is so notoriously conservative that they would need to discredit the video.

I agree that we never should have been there to start with. I never thought that when we were going in. At the same time, it's awfully quaint to sit at home in Chicago and try to judge people who live every day with the real threat of their death.

You're right, there are people who join the military because they're sadistic. There are also people, many of whom I know, who do it for patriotism or because it's a better paying job with better benefits than they'll get otherwise. Considering the people I know from home that are in the military, the latter is the prominent majority.

Your lack of objectivity is astounding. In no way do I condone what happened in the video, but considering you and I haven't been in those shoes, I find it awfully difficult to condemn in the fashion that you do, especially without hearing their perspective.

Then again, my father spent 3 tours in Vietnam and we've thoroughly discussed a lot of what he experienced. He killed people, and he's not proud of it. At the same time, he also watched his friends die in his arms and tried to put the guts of his friends back into their bodies so that they could try to be dragged out and saved. Given the choice between killing someone else or having yourself or someone close to you die, which would you choose?

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

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Originally posted by Dupz Perhaps the US needs a bit of action on home soil before it comes to its senses..?

I don't disagree with this at all, to be honest. As much as the idea turns my stomach, I think both sides of the war debate need a reality check. The hawks need to realize the damage that they inflict, while the doves/people like Max Thompson need to realize that the world isn't quite as clean-cut/peaceful as they'd hope. I'd love to see what someone like him or Cindy Sheehan would do if it was their life in jeopardy. It's a lot easier to criticize when you have no experience.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

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Originally posted by Max Thomson anyone who volunteers to take part in such horrific imperialism deserves to die, end of story.

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Originally posted by Max Thomson do you really have that little compassion for you fellow human beings?

are your world views really so limited and under developed or are you just mentally challenged?

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Originally posted by Max Thomson politicians don't pull triggers, its an all volunteer army. we have met the enemy, and he is us.

Who gives a fuck who pulls the trigger?

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin Who gives a fuck who pulls the trigger?

the people who are getting the bullet in the head, duh

I know the world is a dangerous place, better than most, but also believe humanity needs to change its violent self destructive ways before its too late. And joining the army to go blow up people half a world away for whatever reason doesn't make you patriotic, its make you ignorant and deeply delusional. How many evil doers do you have to kill before you become one yourself?

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein

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Last edited by Max Thomson on Apr-13-2010 at 00:01

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Originally posted by Max Thomson And joining the army to go blow up people half a world away for whatever reason doesn't make you patriotic, its make you ignorant and deeply delusional.

Be honest. How many people do you honestly believe join the Army (or any military branch for that matter) so that they can kill people and blow shit up? Do you think it's fun? Do you think they believe killing is a fucking sport?

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Originally posted by Max Thomson the people who are getting the bullet in the head, duh I know the world is a dangerous place, better than most, but also believe humanity needs to change its violent self destructive ways before its too late. And joining the army to go blow up people half a world away for whatever reason doesn't make you patriotic, its make you ignorant and deeply delusional. How many evil doers do you have to kill before you become one yourself? "Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein

Few people give a fuck about that tree hugger bullshit. Get real dude. It's not trailer trash white boys who make the decisions, it's the rich mother ******s in Washington, who send them over to hell holes "liberating" people. You are way off the deep end my friend. It's the politicians who sent them there which you should be focusing your anger towards.

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Originally posted by Comrade Stalin Few people give a fuck about that tree hugger bullshit. Get real dude. It's not trailer trash white boys who make the decisions, it's the rich mother ******s in Washington,

Actually, it's ultimately all those who have the franchise that make the decisions.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down