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Originally posted by Arbiter Oh really? Then why don't you substantiate it for us here instead of just declaring it so?

See, the thing with self-inquiry is that the only evidence that it yields the results that it does comes from personal experience. Mackler has 20 years of self-reflection (I'm guessing via some form of Vipassana or similar meditation) under his belt. He also has a decade's experience as a psychotherapist. Mate I believe, has close to, or over three decades of experience in his field (medical, palliative care, addiction counselling), also professes a life devoted to self-reflection and is brutally honest and publicly forthcoming about his own struggles with unconscious, compulsive behaviour.

Since you seem to be leaning more toward jpie's suggestion, here's the vid she put up in the TOTA forum, in case you haven't viewed it yet:





Again, this isn't something you "get" by reading scientific reviews on the subject (although if humanity actually wises up enough, there may come a time...). You either do it, or you don't. Personally, I've sat many Vipassana courses, and I can say with no hesitation that the cesspool of shit that you don't know about yourself (or have been in utter denial of) that comes roaring to the surface when you're faced with 10 days and upward of 10 hours per day of silent, inward-focused contemplation corroborates quite nicely with both Mackler and Mate's findings.

I wouldn't be posting any of this if I didn't have at least some direct experience in the matter - I didn't just happen upon this earlier today, suddenly exclaiming to myself, "Wow! Now this makes sense, I think I'll post it on my local message board!". You derisively write of "transcendental nonsense", yet my guess is that the knowledge you feel you possess is almost entirely academic - very easy to brush off such words when your books tell you that everything needs to be peer-reviewed and substantiated on paper in order to be true, neglecting to note that these same opinions come from people who have zero personal experience related to the subject at hand.

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Last edited by PivotTechno on Apr-15-2010 at 02:51

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Originally posted by Kismet7 If you've been through 'trauma', you can't reverse it by things going back to the way they were or the person that gave you trauma changing the way they behave towards you

If you actually took the time to read what he says, you'll find that he doesn't advocate anything close to what you've written. He clearly states that the onus to heal rests entirely upon the individual.

To think that you can somehow change the way others behave toward you is the height of ignorance.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 You're far better off finding it yourself by focusing on perception, gaining knowledge and understanding about important aspects of your life.

Which is exacly what he advocates. What website were you reading?

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Originally posted by PivotTechno Mackler has 20 years of self-reflection

And I have 31 years of self-reflection, so fucking what? (surprise surprise) I agree with arbiter. Mackler is a whackler. But hey, if you can fool a bunch of tards into buying your books or paying for your seminars, then more power to you.

There can be so many root causes of addiction (not the least being substances that are chemically addictive ffs) which I find far more compelling than the fact I wasn’t hugged enough as a child.

In response to the Gabor Mate video. From my own findings on the topic of addiction, I believe humans are masochists, innately self abusers, some more than others. They see their behaviour, including the pain they inflict on themselves as a means of survival. And the pain they inflict on others as a response to trauma. Adults have a high tolerence towards abuse, and you could say this self abuse makes them feel more 'alive' than anything else this world offers them. And since the paramount goal of life is survival, this addiction in the mind of the abuser becomes just another route towards the same goal every human has, survival, freedom, enjoying time and space.

We on the outside see this abuse as addiction, detrimental towards the abusers life and surroundings, but the abuser sees their addiction as merely another way to survive, a form of freedom. Rejecting a straight path of the socially conditioned way of surviving. Rejecting a supressed and repressed way of life. Addiction is essentially the perception and act of survival through another means (a drug), one that works well with a masochist human nature.

So to cure addiction, you have to work with perception, you have to teach the person that they are essentially masochists, go over past trauma and show them why they potentially do what they do. You have to give them an epiphany of sorts, an understanding for why they do what they do, so they have more control over what they are doing. So they can start to perceive what they are doing as something that might not be the best way to survive.

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lolll, "we on the outside".

If you think you are above addiction in any way, you're fucking deluded. Not that that's any news to rest of us.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On lolll, "we on the outside". If you think you are above addiction in any way, you're fucking deluded. Not that that's any news to rest of us.

What exactly is your point? "All peoplezz get addictionzzdz to somethinggzz"? Did you want a cookie? This is about drug addiction, asshole, not addiction itself. And of course I am above drug addiction, its not the most attractive means of survival to me.

ps: What is the psychology of a shill? Its pretty sick

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN There can be so many root causes of addiction (not the least being substances that are chemically addictive ffs) which I find far more compelling than the fact I wasn’t hugged enough as a child.

And these would be...?

FYI, it's impossible for, as you put it, "a substance that is chemically addictive" to be the root of an addiction, as by definition addiction is a behavioural pattern (which is frequently connected with substance abuse), not a physical object. Think before you type, please.

P.S.: I'm glad you're on arbiter's side.

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Originally posted by Kismet7 This is about drug addiction, asshole, not addiction itself.

No, it's actually about addiction itself. And great that you don't do drugs, but as Halcyon succinctly stated, to consider yourself to be somehow outside of the realm of addiction is entirely laughable.

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Originally posted by PivotTechno No, it's actually about addiction itself. And great that you don't do drugs, but as Halcyon succinctly stated, to consider yourself to be somehow outside of the realm of addiction is entirely laughable.

Can you or he give me the exacts words in which you've created this "above addiction" context to what I said?

And no the topic my response was to was primarily about alcohol/drug vice addiction. That is my response to Gabor Mate talk.

But yes addiction itself is a human trait, and I dont think anyone said the words "I am above addiction." As usual your delusions drive your actions.

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quote:

Originally posted by PivotTechno And these would be...? FYI, it's impossible for, as you put it, "a substance that is chemically addictive" to be the root of an addiction, as by definition addiction is a behavioural pattern (which is frequently connected with substance abuse), not a physical object. Think before you type, please. P.S.: I'm glad you're on arbiter's side.

Substances themselves can be addictive and create physical dependency. They alter the way the brain functions. Of course it’s a behavioural pattern, but that pattern can be dictated by the physical qualities of a drug, with absolutely no correlation with mummy or daddy issues. It is perfectly possible for any well-adjusted, happy person to become addicted to a substance that has addictive qualities, without the need to reference some hidden, psychological trauma from their childhood.

Addiction is a complex area which is why simplistic nonsense like that spewed by whackler should be suspect to any critical thinker.