sounds like you knew the boy. sorry

No.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lira If anything, it's an argument against an all-loving omnipotent God...

Is it, though? Perhaps it defeats the idea of an anesthetizing watchdog in the sky (at least temporarily), but is suffering not a vital component to even love as we humans know it? If anything, the reclamation of one's life into the folds of an unknown beyond merely confirms the presence of something that creates as well as 'destroys', so far as our shortsighted understanding of spiritual return is concerned. Atheism as the kneejerk response to hurt seems to me just as sad an industry as theism in the same scenario. Yes, individual understanding is all too often the over-development of emotional pathways, but no side of the debate precludes existence, it can only present evidence at the behest of human conceit - something that is probably far more real to me than any God.

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by chlola Do you believe in God? If so... please explain to me why he lets a 17 year old boy with a heart of gold, die of liver failure the day before his senior prom ....

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Is it, though? Perhaps it defeats the idea of an anesthetizing watchdog in the sky (at least temporarily), but is suffering not a vital component to even love as we humans know it? If anything, the reclamation of one's life into the folds of an unknown beyond merely confirms the presence of something that creates as well as 'destroys', so far as our shortsighted understanding of spiritual return is concerned. Atheism as the kneejerk response to hurt seems to me just as sad an industry as theism in the same scenario. Yes, individual understanding is all too often the over-development of emotional pathways, but no side of the debate precludes existence, it can only present evidence at the behest of human conceit - something that is probably far more real to me than any God.

Like I said, it can be an argument, but it's far from being the smoking gun that killed this sort of God.

I'm not sure I agree with you when you say that "the reclamation of one's life into the folds of an unknown beyond merely confirms the presence of something that creates as well as 'destroys'" because, given the physical reality behind the creation of life and its extinction, there's no need to postulate the existence of an external force.

In any case, I too think that not believing in this God is a poor excuse for being an adamant atheist because this is hardly the only possibility: there are tons of "Gods" in monotheism, paradoxical though it is.

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it was his time dude.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira I'm not sure I agree with you when you say that "the reclamation of one's life into the folds of an unknown beyond merely confirms the presence of something that creates as well as 'destroys'" because, given the physical reality behind the creation of life and its extinction, there's no need to postulate the existence of an external force.

Oh, indeed. But what of the very real, very observable force of death in the first place? Does something that irrefutably governs us completely out of our own control not deserve any assignment to conscious or unconscious consideration? Agree with it or not, the fact that many human beings consider God to be a very real presence in their lives is all that is required for existence. Otherwise it's like saying democracy does not exist because you can't kill it or fuck it or see it - of course you can argue that any civic conception is merely a mask worn upon another idea, and that democracy is a sham because it does not work or something, etc. But it certainly does not defeat the idea in the least. Yes, traditional notions of a conscious entity are extremely flawed, but what else can we call something that by its nature would transcend our conventions of consciousness in the first place? And can have very real manifestations in our every day life despite the skepticism of people who, ironically, believe in its inexistence?

Because, truly, it's not about an 'external' force in the least, and I am sure that most reasonably self-aware theists would say the same - if there is a God, it is a presence that courses through us all, and alienates no form of life whatsoever. Belief is a dwarf amidst the slow lapping of rocks before an inferential ocean of existence we can perceive just fine, albeit asymmetrically.

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There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

because he wanted to be fodder for a chlolara thread

quote:

Originally posted by Joss Weatherby chlolara

___________________
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

quote:

Originally posted by chlola Do you believe in God? If so... please explain to me why he lets a 17 year old boy with a heart of gold, die of liver failure the day before his senior prom ....

The boy worshipped the wrong religion.

quote:

Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Because, truly, it's not about an 'external' force in the least, and I am sure that most reasonably self-aware theists would say the same - if there is a God, it is a presence that courses through us all, and alienates no form of life whatsoever. Belief is a dwarf amidst the slow lapping of rocks before an inferential ocean of existence we can perceive just fine, albeit asymmetrically.

So... pantheism?

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quote:

The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.

-Richard Dawkins