ironically enough, i'm reading a really interesting book and its characters are starting to ask the same questions.

it's a psychological fiction about a guy who has this illness - splitting of a false identity, as they call it. one part of him is some military commander in the post-revolutionary Russia (1920s) and the other part is living in a mental institution in the 1990s.

it's funny how both personalities think that the other one is a dream. the post-revolutionary guy talks about having nightmares about being locked in a mental hospital and his chief advises him to write down his dreams in detail (hmm, sorta like lucidity). he says that if you understand that you're dreaming, it wouldn't matter anymore what you're dreaming about. but i think the author actually hints that both identities are dreams...

also, this chief is really strange, asking the post-revolutionary character questions about reality and placement of objects...

they had this interesting conversation about candle wax. suppose the drops of wax have some sense of intelligence. then they must have a problem of self-identification. so if any of the drops thinks its just a form of matter that it has taken, then it's mortal, because every form can be destroyed. but if it uderstands if it's a drop of wax - what's gonna happen to it? the problem is that wax is almost impossible for it to understand that it's just a drop of wax, if you get the analogy.

unfortunately, this book is in Russian and i don't know if it has been translated or whatever.

so that's the question then. what makes things real? is it the material they're made of? our touching them? our smelling, sensing them? and on the other point, when we ask "what makes things real", what do we mean by "real"? what is that real and who knows how it tastes like?

sorry if i got anyone confused by this.

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Well the biological clock theory, i used to have this a few years ago, and i think that because we know what time were gonna wake up, we think it during our sleep and somehow it talk to the biological clock about it... like when i was in high school, i used to study late @ nite, because i couldn't do what some people did, which was to get up early like @ 5am and do sum study..

The reason for this been, that i didn't get a good sleep because i kept on thinking that i had to get up early 2morro, and i couldn't sleep half of the time...

-=-

The dreams about locations and places that you have visited in your dreams... OMG
I have that too alot, all the time i guess, like i dreamt once of been in the country on a car with sumone and like 1yr later i was, and it was really freaky cause i had a small shiver run thru me and just then i remmebered that i had a dream like that... like been there before when i really hadn't, it was freaky and happens more than i can remember...

-=-

About Pain... well i remmeber hearing something about pain been the body's natural self-defence mechanism, like a warning that something is wrong and that something bad is happening... Like pain from a broken bone, cause image if we didn't feel pain, we could break a bone and falll and don't know it.. that would be weird..
But you relate to the fact about pain been a sort of volume or a quantity of something.. hmmm.. interesting... i never really thought of that much at all...
But it would be nice to detect pain, like something broken or damaged inside our bodies...

But wait... hmmm... if pain is bad like a broken bone, or a muscle, wouldn't it create heat??? does it create heat? Hmmmm.. interesting...
Maybe if it does then we can detect it...

But then what about pain from sorrow and misery and a broken heart??
I don't think we can detect that.. or maybe by brain waves... im sure there must be some way of detecting abnormal brain wave activity, so maybe the answers lie there??? im just taking a guess with a little science to back up my crazy theories...

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith I completely understand your point. what is pain? ok, try this one? what is sound? it's vibrations that move your ear drum, which sends electrical impulses to your brain. it's your BRAIN that interprets them as the wonderful music that trance is. that part is tough to explain with science.

On this note, have you ever considered that how we hear a particular tune may be completely different to how somebody else hears it (how it sounds)..

like, they may describe it in the same terms (pounding bass, etc) but how they hear 'pounding basslines' may be completely different to yourself...

all right, i've been kinda thinking about this whole deja vu thing for a long time. it always happens to me in a sorta strange way: i feel like i've been in the situation before, and at that moment i'm kinda looking at myself and what i'm doing from a third point of view. also, at the same time, i feel like there's something different about the situation, like, say, i didn't know a particular person in that situation before.

oh, damn, i just had the craziest idea. what if when we dream - we sometimes see the future as it happens to us, but our brain ALWAYS makes us forget that? i often have accounts of seeing some object or place and it reminds me of a dream i had this night, but totally forgotten it. so then sometimes when we go through the situations that we already saw in our dreams, they seem familiar...

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I think that dreams by far are really one of the most amazing of all these topics.

I don't always dream peacefully, as I have had some terribly messed up dreams in my time.....I believe dreams are completely vital to our lives though. As ridiculous as it may sound, once you learn to control your dreams consistently, you could find your day to day lives, much more relaxing. The effect dreams have on us is really quite amazing in my opinion. For example, nightmares.....When you were a kid, you woke up, scared, etc....But even now, in this day, grown up, nightmares still take effect, and its not really an issue of whether it was "real or not", its the fact that it moved me so much that it is frightening. Waking up in a sweat, possibly with some tears, literally scared out of your mind. After a bad dream, it usually takes me about 2 hours to "come back to reality". Sometimes it can really affect your day.

I also think dreams are great for fullfilment, etc.etc...Basically fantasies. At one point if you manage to learn to conquer your dream, sleeping is a whole different deal. For example, numerous times, I have stopped myself in my dream, and said "well, this is a dream, I know I'm in it" and you take advantage of it. You have the oppurtunity to fullfill that fantasy/desire you otherwise havent fulfilled in your real life. Whether it be sex with 10 females at once or swimming in absolutely beautiful tropical islands....I mean, it sounds crazy I know, but what you can do with dreams, is really amazing. Though you realize its a dream, the reality of it all is literally as CLOSE as you can get, besides virtual reality, or actually achieving it in real life....Your emotions, your visuals, all of it takes place, just like in real life. I think a lot of people take dreams for granted, and usually choose to ignore them, or not look into them, but as some know, the power of the subconcious is overwhelming, and I believe, learning to control or atleast understand your dreams, will and can help you to live a healthier, more interesting life.

"I think therefore I am." - Descartes

Basically, the only thing you can prove 100% is your own existance. Everything else can be a mirage, an illusion, or whatnot, everything could be a lie, but the only thing you are a perfectly sure of is that YOU exist.

==

There is nothing outerworldly about dreams. It's just your mind wandering while you sleep. That's all.

___________________
The father made fetuses with flesh licking ladies / While you and your mother were asleep in the trailer park / Thunderous sparks from the dark of the stadiums / The music and medicine you needed for comforting / So make all your fat, fleshy fingers fingers to moving / And pluck all your silly strings and / Bend all your notes for me and / Soft silly music is meaningful, magical / The movements were beautiful / All in your ovaries / All of them milking with green fleshy flowers / While powerful pistons were sugary sweet machines, / Smelling of semen all under the garden / Was all you were needing when you still believed in me.

quote:

Originally posted by SportTrance I don't always dream peacefully, as I have had some terribly messed up dreams in my time.....I believe dreams are completely vital to our lives though. After a bad dream, it usually takes me about 2 hours to "come back to reality". Sometimes it can really affect your day.

so true... sometimes dreams set my mood for the day

maybe the only thing that's real is our thought. what are thoughts, by the way, electrical impulses? just like computer stuff, right? it's like Stanley Kubrik's "2001: Space Odyssey" where he shows the evolution of man from a monkey to a pure electrical impulse - a thought

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quote:

Originally posted by magicsushi On this note, have you ever considered that how we hear a particular tune may be completely different to how somebody else hears it (how it sounds).. like, they may describe it in the same terms (pounding bass, etc) but how they hear 'pounding basslines' may be completely different to yourself...

yep. an elementary thought, once you try to explore the inner space of the human mind.

for example, is my blue, your blue? maybe you see it pink? but since i am callling it blue, and you are too, we agree, and can communicate.

maybe this is why some people prefer some colors and some others? i don't know..

life is very interesting isn't it...

quote:

Originally posted by davinox There is nothing outerworldly about dreams. It's just your mind wandering while you sleep. That's all.

I am assuming you are basing that idea on scientific studies and the brains functions. Everyone has a logical explanation for everything, or atleast we all try to find one, its what comforts our exhistence, but, I'm curious as to what makes you so sure there is NOTHING outerworldly about dreams...I am not saying there IS something outerworldly, but what makes you so sure there isn't?

Last edited by SportTrance on Aug-01-2002 at 04:16

lol... nothing is outerworldly, it's all right here around us.

you just have to open your eyes and see it.

BTW, i have also had dreams where i predict the future, it is a common occurence.

there is more to life than you can learn in school and off CNN kids.

in fact, there are somethings which CNN and the school system would like you NOT to ever find out.

don't be afraid to believe something, just be careful not to get tricked either.

quote:

Originally posted by SportTrance I think that dreams by far are really one of the most amazing of all these topics. I don't always dream peacefully, as I have had some terribly messed up dreams in my time.....I believe dreams are completely vital to our lives though. As ridiculous as it may sound, once you learn to control your dreams consistently, you could find your day to day lives, much more relaxing. The effect dreams have on us is really quite amazing in my opinion. For example, nightmares.....When you were a kid, you woke up, scared, etc....But even now, in this day, grown up, nightmares still take effect, and its not really an issue of whether it was "real or not", its the fact that it moved me so much that it is frightening. Waking up in a sweat, possibly with some tears, literally scared out of your mind. After a bad dream, it usually takes me about 2 hours to "come back to reality". Sometimes it can really affect your day. I also think dreams are great for fullfilment, etc.etc...Basically fantasies. At one point if you manage to learn to conquer your dream, sleeping is a whole different deal. For example, numerous times, I have stopped myself in my dream, and said "well, this is a dream, I know I'm in it" and you take advantage of it. You have the oppurtunity to fullfill that fantasy/desire you otherwise havent fulfilled in your real life. Whether it be sex with 10 females at once or swimming in absolutely beautiful tropical islands....I mean, it sounds crazy I know, but what you can do with dreams, is really amazing. Though you realize its a dream, the reality of it all is literally as CLOSE as you can get, besides virtual reality, or actually achieving it in real life....Your emotions, your visuals, all of it takes place, just like in real life. I think a lot of people take dreams for granted, and usually choose to ignore them, or not look into them, but as some know, the power of the subconcious is overwhelming, and I believe, learning to control or atleast understand your dreams, will and can help you to live a healthier, more interesting life.

so i take it that you lucid dream ??? i had to do research on this for school... and i read that whatever your having problems with in life, your supposed to write it down on paper before you go to bed.. and really focus on it & supposively your "dream" will create the solution... have you heard of this before ??? cos you seem to know alot of about this kind of stuff... very interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by SportTrance I am assuming you are basing that idea on scientific studies and the brains functions. Everyone has a logical explanation for everything, or atleast we all try to find one, its what comforts our exhistence, but, I'm curious as to what makes you so sure there is NOTHING outerworldly about dreams...I am not saying there IS something outerworldly, but what makes you so sure there isn't?

\

well i can't be SURE of anything, but that's what it looks like isn't it?

that's all i can go with.

___________________
The father made fetuses with flesh licking ladies / While you and your mother were asleep in the trailer park / Thunderous sparks from the dark of the stadiums / The music and medicine you needed for comforting / So make all your fat, fleshy fingers fingers to moving / And pluck all your silly strings and / Bend all your notes for me and / Soft silly music is meaningful, magical / The movements were beautiful / All in your ovaries / All of them milking with green fleshy flowers / While powerful pistons were sugary sweet machines, / Smelling of semen all under the garden / Was all you were needing when you still believed in me.