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Domesticated
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location:

Let me clarify by saying that this woman is very cheerful. She's fat and jolly, like a female santa. She doesn't keep poisons on her nightstand. I think her problem is that she has unrealistic expectations of what actually constitutes happiness. She probably thinks it's like a lifelong orgasm or something.

What concerns me is your pre-existing knowledge of this movement. You just happened to stumble across it one day, huh?


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Old Post Dec-27-2010 19:02 
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Lira
Ancient BassAddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasilia, Brazil

quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
Basically, this woman thinks life is such a terrible thing that nobody should have kids (and that it is even immoral to have them).

I've often had the same doubt myself, I can't blame her for being just a bit more categorical about it.

I'm still not sure I want to have kids because, unlike hippie folks that just want to save the planet, I'm not sure I'd be able to look at a kid in the eye and say I love someone whom I brought to life. Even if I can share the blame with more people, heh.


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Old Post Dec-27-2010 19:03  Brazil
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MrJiveBoJingles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: U.S.

quote:
Originally posted by Domesticated
What concerns me is your pre-existing knowledge of this movement. You just happened to stumble across it one day, huh?

I don't remember how I found it. I think it was in the process of reading about the philosopher David Benatar, who made a book-length argument along these lines:

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Never-...e/dp/0199296421

Old Post Dec-27-2010 19:07  United States
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EddieZilker
This is the dance.



Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Marijuana Sex Camp

Reminds me of the guy who went in and shot up the Discovery Channel offices.


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Old Post Dec-27-2010 19:10  United States
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Domesticated
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles
I don't remember how I found it. I think it was in the process of reading about the philosopher David Benatar, who made a book-length argument along these lines:

http://www.amazon.com/Better-Never-...e/dp/0199296421


What a fucking dipshit. Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence. The title is a fucking oxymoron, and I say this as someone who long ago stopped thinking life is a super-amazing miracle. I think I want to read the book just to see how low the bar is before I get my first one published.


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Old Post Dec-27-2010 19:13 
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MrJiveBoJingles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: U.S.

quote:
Originally posted by EddieZilker
Reminds me of the guy who went in and shot up the Discovery Channel offices.

Well, these people are not supporting human extinction for environmentalist reasons. They just think that life is so horrible that the whole thing isn't worth it.

Old Post Dec-27-2010 19:14  United States
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KilldaDJ
birth.school.trance.death



Registered: Sep 2001
Location: tranceaddict wants to know your location



WONT YOU PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE PLEEEEEEEESE HALP ME


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Old Post Dec-27-2010 19:20 
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Lira
Ancient BassAddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasilia, Brazil

quote:
Originally posted by Domesticated
What a fucking dipshit. Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence. The title is a fucking oxymoron,

How so? By the way, keep in mind editors and publishers often pick the title against the author's will.
quote:
Originally posted by Domesticated
and I say this as someone who long ago stopped thinking life is a super-amazing miracle. I think I want to read the book just to see how low the bar is before I get my first one published.

Sure, just because someone's got a prominent position in society, that doesn't mean they're necessarily bright, but how "lucky" do you have to be a poor writer as a professor of one of the most prestigious universities of your country continent and then have a book of yours published by the Oxford University Press?

Keep in mind philosophy often congratulates those who make far-fetched but well-argued claims. Like that Irish priest that thought reality was all in God's mind because he cranked the logical conclusions of empiricism up to eleven.


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Last edited by Lira on Dec-27-2010 at 20:04

Old Post Dec-27-2010 19:57  Brazil
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Domesticated
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location:

quote:
Originally posted by Lira
How so? By the way, keep in mind editors and publishers often pick the title against the author's will.

Sure, just because someone's got a prominent position in society, that doesn't mean they're necessarily bright, but how "lucky" do you have to be a poor writer as a professor of one of the most prestigious universities of your country continent and then have a book of yours published by the Oxford University Press?

Keep in mind philosophy often congratulates those who make far-fetched but well-argued claims. Like that Irish priest that thought reality was all in God's mind because he cranked the logical conclusions of empiricism up to eleven.


The title doesn't matter, the whole premise of the book is ridiculous.

quote:
In this remarkable book, the South African philosopher David Benatar attempts to solve, in a most unusual way, some related moral problems concerning matters of life and death. Benatar claims, inter alia, that deliberate procreation is immoral; that abortion is morally mandatory if possible before approximately 30 weeks of gestation; and that the morally optimal size of the human population is ZERO. On the face of it, this may strike the reader as absurd, or even insane, but Benatar is most certainly not a madman, as any reader who gives this book a fair chance will soon acknowledge.

The above-mentioned conclusions all follow more or less straightforwardly from Benatar's main thesis, which is almost literally expressed in the title of the book: For any conscious being (whether human or non-human) it would have been better never to exist, since coming into being is always an overall harm, and thus worse than non-existence, for that being (though not necessarily for other already existing beings, e.g. parents and siblings). Benatar argues for this astounding thesis by drawing attention to an alleged asymmetry between pain and pleasure (both understood broadly): Non-existence implies the absence of both pains and pleasures, but whereas the absence of the pains is something good, it is not the case that the absence of the pleasures is bad or something to be deplored. A potential person is not deprived of anything, claims Benatar, by not being brought into existence.

Some immediate, but confused, objections can be dismissed easily. One example is the objection that life must be an overall good for a person, unless that person is willing to commit suicide. Benatar is at pains to point out the important distinction between judging that a possible life should not be started and judging that an actual life should not be continued. Thus, Benatar's argument does not commit him to the view that we are morally obligated to kill ourselves and/or each other. On the contrary, he quite explicitly denounces such a view (chapter 7), but this is, strangely, lost on several of the book's reviewers.

But is the alleged asymmetry a real asymmetry or only an apparent one? Benatar's argument for the reality of the asymmetry is a lot stronger than many will admit, but it is not quite as strong as he himself seems to think. At bottom, Benatar's argument is a coherence argument: Unless we accept the asymmetry, we cannot make sense of some of our other deeply held convictions, most notable, perhaps, the conviction that "while there is a duty to avoid bringing suffering people into existence, there is no duty to bring happy people into being" (p. 32). However, an argument of this kind is obviously double-edged and able to cut both ways. An opponent might be willing to bite the bullet and, while rejecting asymmetry, accept that we DO have a duty to bring happy people into being. Benatar is aware of this possibility but dismisses it because he thinks it is based on the assumption that people only have derivative value as "mere means to the production of happiness" (p. 37). This, however, is much too quick. The (imaginary) opponent does not need to absurdly abstract the happiness from the person and see the latter as being nothing but a necessary condition, without any inherent value, for the existence of the former. Rather, the question is whether a happy person, considered as a whole, has intrinsic positive value seen from the moral point of view. If this is the case, as I think it is, then it might reasonably be claimed that the possible existence of a happy person provides us with a moral reason to (try to) bring that possible person into existence. But this moral reason is, of course, by no means decisive. It might be overruled by other moral reasons pointing in the opposite direction, e.g. the reasons provided by any kind of pain experienced by the possible person, in case he/she is given life.

This latter observation is important, because it means that Benatar's substantive conclusions might be correct even if we reject his claims about the alleged asymmetry. It might be the case that most, or even all, lives as a matter of fact contain more bad than can be compensated for by the actual amount of good in those lives, and exactly this view, a kind of fall back position, is what Benatar defends in the most interesting chapter of the book (chapter 3). Drawing on empirical research in social psychology, Benatar builds a strong argument to the effect that people are unreliable judges when assessing the quality of their own lives. He proceeds to show, in my opinion rather convincingly, that the quality of most people's lives is actually very bad, and that this is the case whether one adopts a hedonistic, a preference-theoretical, or an objective account of the nature of "the Good". Whether we like it or not, we do have many moral reasons, certainly more than most people realize, to STOP bringing new people into existence. Anyone who thinks that these reasons can be trumped by moral reasons for procreation has a big philosophical task on his/her hands.

Generally, the book is an easy read, thanks to the clarity of Benatar's exposition of the problems, the theories, and the arguments presented. One important upside of this is that readers without an education in philosophy should be able to learn a lot from Benatar's stimulating discussion. Unfortunately, not many will. Benatar is under no illusions that his readers will accept his stance or at least consider his arguments without much prejudice. This is a pity, because neither dubious appeals to common sense nor unfair arguments ad hominem will make Benatar's arguments bad and his conclusions false, contrary to what some of this book's reviewers seem to be thinking. Just as reciting the Lord's Prayer cannot refute Atheism, a rational refutation of Benatar, if possible, must be based on some serious philosophical work.

Lest wishful thinking should completely guide our actions and determine our conception of morality, philosophy should always challenge our most fundamental assumptions, and it should do so rationally, honestly, without self-deception or fear of the truth. In this work Benatar satisfies these desiderata, and that is why "Better Never to Have Been" merits attention. It deserves to be read and thought about carefully and with an open mind, and it deserves to be discussed in a serious, fair and intelligent manner. It is a very important book.


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Last edited by Domesticated on Dec-27-2010 at 21:02

Old Post Dec-27-2010 20:42 
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MrJiveBoJingles
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Jun 2004
Location: U.S.

Radio show about the book, with Benatar discussing it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpACAyWxleE

From the host's little summary:
quote:
The book argues that all our lives are very bad and generally much worse than we think. We are systematically and significantly mistaken about their value. We shouldn't have children, women should have early abortions. The abortion debate on the whole is between the pro-life and pro-choice lobbies: the professor holds a candle for the pro-death view; he thinks any woman needs excellent reasons not to abort a child. He hopes one day that all humans and all other animals will be extinct.

Old Post Dec-27-2010 21:00  United States
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Lira
Ancient BassAddict



Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Brasilia, Brazil

quote:
Originally posted by Domesticated
The title doesn't matter, the whole premise of the book is ridiculous.

I don't think so. If anything, I'm slightly sympathetic to its main theme, though I can't talk about the book before I actually read it.

I'm adding it to my to-read list. If I do ever read it, I'm going to post my review here.


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Old Post Dec-27-2010 21:31  Brazil
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Domesticated
Supreme tranceaddict



Registered: Feb 2007
Location:

Okay, so perhaps (to borrow a Sagan-ism), I'm being a little anthropocentric here, but if humans (and animals) don't exist, then what's the point of anything? The whole premise is thoroughly nihilistic.

Life might just be a particularly special arrangement of carbon atoms, but it's still a very special one. If you want to take away that, you may as well destroy the universe as well, on the basis that it's just as pointless.

The only "real" point I can think of is that humans shouldn't exist because we're, on the whole, a miserable lot. This seems to be a central tenet to the book, that by creating more humans, we're creating more unhappiness. Two things:

a) The author is a moron if he believes he has the right to decide, on behalf of others, whether they should live or not.

b) Half the point of humanity is to improve our situation. Why else did we jump out of the trees? He's basically advocating ending the human race because we failed. He's asking that we give up the race before it's even finished. That's a shitty, defeatist attitude.

Of course, I'm interested to read the book too. I've only thought about this in the back of my mind for a couple of minutes. Who knows, this book could be the revelation that finally shows me suicide is the answer!


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Old Post Dec-27-2010 21:49 
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