quote:

Originally posted by Lolo knowing logic and live quite well... I second L4C's opinion here. Logic is rather poor because they never have taken the time to re-design those arpeggio, chord and other elements living in the ruins of the environment. In fact the whole environment should be easier to use now, and it's the perfect opposite. So you're constantly fighting against the limitations of logic, but in a way it also serves you as you dig deeper. What's missing in logic anno 2011: destructive audio-editing with plugins (an old request from 2002 but I gave up), better environment tools, better keyboard "gestures": arp, chord, pitch, velocity other than the environment blocks. And now also lacking the pitch on audio tracks alongside with the flex time engine. I use Logic though, been using it since 1998 and after a pause in 2007 I got back to it a year later. I went for ableton live in 2005 which I still use for quick productions, remixes and shows of all kinds, but felt terrible with its limitations when trying to make music with people who rely on sheet music. Plus the midi editing functions AND the nonsense of anti-ergonomics when it comes to step recording make it poor for midi after all. Their built-in eq and compressor sound like crap too, let's face it. Also missing in ableton is a spot on audio edition like the one in logic with basic functions such as fade in and out, gain. Ok all of that is there, but it's realtime and taxes cpu for nothing. Plus I like low level editing of files. The ones doing timestretch bit by bit back in the good old years know why :-) Meanwhile there's one sequencer that might soon overwhelm all the others if they keep making it better at that tempo, that's NI's Maschine. Believe it or not, but fact is that they're pushing it forward by implementing everything I'd expect from logic or live for beat and electronic. What it's missing is ableton like timestrech but oh well... Anyway, it's too early, but it looks like we're having a strong combo by using maschine inside logic, which is what I do today. L4C might be right, if logic X is garbage, it's time for a change, and the only sequencer that boasts all those features, although I don't like it, is cubase. Who knows, after all...

I hear you about the environment, but I think rather than trying to improve it, they should dump it all together - it is just a relic from a time when it was actually needed and there's so many other and better ways they could implement the same things now (like midi plugins in the signal chain in the mixer etc).

I think there's always a "grass is greener" feeling but I have an engineers brain, and put simply logic is the most logical to me. Sure EXS and ultrabeat haven't quite gelled with me, but they're plugs not he platform itself and given that the included logic plugs are simply outstanding, I can't really complain.

I think those slating logic for midi aren't doing it right - logic by far has the best midi and audio implementation of all the major daws I've tried. I would also say it's probably the most stable. The only crashes I've had have been from buggy 3rd party plugins, which have all been fixed asap by the manufacturer (maybe with the exception of NI).

I've tried Live a good few times and the advantages were so badly outweighed by the negatives and limitations it could never be anything more than a sketchpad for ideas for me.

The only thing I may end up switching to is native Pro Toools - it would save me a fair bit of hassle having to jump between the two but I also have a love/hate relationship with PTHD (ilok, routing, interface etc), so not quite sure I want to take the full leap.

Thanks for chiming in, lads. I must say, I found subsequent editions of Cubase (versions after 1.6) cludgy and quite complex, unnecessarily so.

My good friend ran Sonar for a long time and swore by it. One thing I did see, watching him work, was how easy it was to get something going in midi. However, the way it handled vsti was taxing on performance. Also lack of Mac support makes it a nonstarter for me. I'm almost at a point where I either jump ship to logic or eat my crow and crawl back to win XP/Cubase 1.6 - without all the fancy new stuff.

Tyas, Armin, van Doorn, Prydz swear by logic... I'd hate to waste $500 if it don't work out... And I'm not installing virus riddled crack on my Mac. Dilemma...

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Any reason you're not considering PT9 or PreSonus Studio One? Both are legitimate contenders, and Studio One V2 is about to be released any day now with a ton of new features. As a former Cubase user, I'd take either one over Cubase, but primarily because I just never liked its workflow, terminology, etc. I'm not a Mac owner and I've never used Logic, but based on the various vids I've seen, it looks nice.

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quote:

Originally posted by aNYthing TAnd I'm not installing virus riddled crack on my Mac. Dilemma...

rest assured your crack will not have a virus unless you are running a pc. Virus' on macs are a myth.

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quote:

Originally posted by Kysora I'm not really sure what your point is here, pirated versions are usually more prone to bugs and crashes.

You shouldn't use pirated anything.

quote:

Originally posted by djshire You shouldn't use pirated anything.

I agree but these arguments never go anywhere. Each position only has conjecture to back it up with moral appeals on both sides that never really amount to much in light of the fact they can't be supported with logically relevant evidence. There is no Profit & Loss accounting for pirated software, on the anti-pirating side, and no evidence, for pro-piracy, which proves the predicted revenue stream; when those who are "auditing" the software - as one would a college course - can be counted on to purchase it.

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quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Any reason you're not considering PT9 or PreSonus Studio One? Both are legitimate contenders, and Studio One V2 is about to be released any day now with a ton of new features. As a former Cubase user, I'd take either one over Cubase, but primarily because I just never liked its workflow, terminology, etc. I'm not a Mac owner and I've never used Logic, but based on the various vids I've seen, it looks nice.

AFAIK, PT does not support VSTi well - only having recently added that functionality. Also, I heard ever since M-Audio (and subsequently whoever bought them out) took over, it got crappier.

I guess there isn't a perfect tool for anyone. Maybe the answer lies in running multiple apps - one for specific purpose.

Ableton - playing around with ideas
Logic - for midi editing/advanced functions
Soundforge - sound editing

Hm.. now there's a thought

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quote:

Originally posted by aNYthing AFAIK, PT does not support VSTi well - only having recently added that functionality. Also, I heard ever since M-Audio (and subsequently whoever bought them out) took over, it got crappier.

No, PT does not natively support VST; however, most plugins these days are available in its native format (RTAS), or there's always the FXpansion VST>RTAS wrapper for an additional cost. As a long-time PT user, I have to disagree with your second statement - it's much improved, particularly in the MIDI department. But, it's still not perfect and it looks like you've ruled it out already anyway.

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hey RANN

i've alway thought the automation features in Logic and I suppose along with it the midi quite limited. I wish there were better tools for curves, different types of waves and what not like in cubase. It is really rudimentary. I also wish there was like a midi generator similar to like audio but just digital information which you can imagine would be quite handy.

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So here is why and where FL Studio comes in.

Seems to be both logic and ableton have been slated for being shit or mediocre at best.

Long live the FL King.

Cubase can eat a dick as far as I am concerned.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lunar Phase 7 So here is why and where FL Studio comes in. Seems to be both logic and ableton have been slated for being shit or mediocre at best. Long live the FL King. Cubase can eat a dick as far as I am concerned.

Why hate cubase? Expln.