quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik Naw, the beauty of letting software do all of our thinking for us is that it leaves us more time to complain about how terrible EDM music has become.

Yet I can still decipher the key of a track sans software help AND find time to jabber on about how shit 99% of the music I listen to is

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quote:

Originally posted by Jimb0b How ?

my bad dude, forgot to include a pretty important detail

basically, its exactly how cryophonik said, just play the track in your software and play along with it with a piano or something, if you dnt know scales just indentify what keys sound good with the track and use those to make your remix

quote:

Originally posted by Jimb0b This is something I always stumble on. Say for example I want to do a remix of a song, and I have the vocal, and I have no idea what key the vocal is in, what is the best way for me to determine the key of the vocal so I can get the rest of my song in key to the vocal ?

http://www.gvst.co.uk/gtune_screenshot.htm

You can use this, write the notes and check the scales that they will fit in.

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the problem those software algorythms is that they place too much emphasis on the predominant ( non musical use of the word) bass note which not always the root note of the key. It happens more than you think in pop so if you are using a pop vocal, the software relies on a false notion that a key has the tonic chord sounding very often. You can be in a particular key without ever getting that tonic chord in any inversion what so ever. In laymen's terms, a track can be in C major without ever having a C major chord.

you don't need to know the key of a track to use a vocal. You could play notes, listen and if it sounds like it belongs, jot it down. Make a list. and play with those notes. I mean i could not imagine someone doing this as opposed to taking 2 hours and learning about scales and keys but using software , well you don't learn anything.

If you plan to produce for a long time, spend a bit of time on theory music side. Even just knowing the basics might save you time in the future.

keys are interesting things. They are intangible are purely practical in nature. You can't prove anything is any key because while you say it is in A minor , i say that the key outlining the subdominant region of E minor and we would both be right. I could say the key is outlining the supertonic of G major .....

now this sounds like utter bullshit but when say analyzing large works ie symphonies, you would typically use that sort of nomenclature. I movement would have 1 key yet many key regions yada yada .... fuck you.

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Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Nov-01-2011 at 21:27

If you've never done this before, here is the general approach that I recommend to get you started. Since 99% of EDM songs are in either natural minor or major key, this approach should work *most of the time*.

1. Turn off your computer and turn on your brain and ears (OK, I'm being somewhat facetious to make a point, which is to forget about using lame-ass software shortcuts and learning how to do this on your own).

2. As mentioned above, loop the vocal part. If it's a long a capella, you may want to loop it one section at a time (e.g., chorus, then verse, etc.).

3. Fire up a basic piano sound and start playing along with each looped section until you figure out each of the notes in the melody. Write them down, if necessary, but be sure to be consistent with your "black" keys - DO NOT mix sharps and flats. For example, don't write down one as Db and another as G# (call them Db and Ab, or C# and G#). You'll see why below.

4. Once you've figured out each of the notes, put them in alphabetical order and count the number of notes that have a sharp or a flat - again, I can't stress enough that you shouldn't have a mixture of sharps and flats. For example, Ab Bb C D Eb F G has 3 flats. You may find that there are a couple of "accidentals" (e.g., a B-natural and a Bb in the same song) - you'll need to listen to the context and how frequently each of the notes is used to make a determination. If one of the notes sounds out of place in the context of the rest of the track, then it is probably a non-harmonic note, so you can probably ignore it.

5. Look at the Circle of Fifths and find the key that has the same number of flats or sharps. In the example I used, it has 3 flats so it would be either Eb major or C minor.

6. From there, you have options. Depending on the melody, you may be able to use the minor key or the major key. Sometimes the melody will imply or even make it obvious that it is major or minor, but not always. You also may find that the songs in minor key use the harmonic or melodic version - you'll need to rely on some music theory knowledge and/or your ears to help you there, but that's getting a little beyond the scope of this primer. Listen to the last note of each section (e.g., chorus, verse) - does it sound like it has resolved, or creating tension? If it sounds like it has resolved, then sometimes knowing which note it is can help you decide whether to use major or minor. For example, if it sounds like it has resolved and the note is a C, then it's probably in C minor, because the Eb major chord (Eb/G/Bb) does not have a C in it. Conversely, if the note is a Bb, it is likely in Eb, since the Cmin chord (C/Eb/G) does not have a Bb in it.

As I mentioned, it's not going to be this simple for every song, particularly if the song changes key, uses a lot of non-harmonic notes/chords, or is in one of the "church" modes (e.g., Dorian). But, this approach should work for most EDM tracks and will help improve your musical skills dramatically, whereas relying on software will not teach you much at all, except maybe how to drool out of the other side of your mouth while you're waiting for it to process the audio. And, don't worry, this isn't that difficult. After you've done this a handful times, you will quickly start to be able to skip many steps. A reasonably accomplished musician should be able to listen to a track, figure out the notes, and determine the key on the order of a few minutes without the use of software. But, you'll probably never get there if you continue to let software think for you.

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i dont want to be a musician, i want to be a ferry corsten.

quote:

Originally posted by MSZ i dont want to be a musician, i want to be a ferry corsten.

valid point

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i've never seen a synth in a music video blow shit up. But a guitar. I can name at least 10 videos where the power of rock actually makes things blow up.





now

the power of rock and roll guitar!




lol ahh white people


here is what you get when you take lame white guys that have too much technique and bad taste/ Behold, white people ruining stuff, That is what we do best.

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old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
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Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Nov-02-2011 at 03:07

This might be silly, but is finding the key of the vocal so important?
I mean, if you have the vocal and you can play a nice bass/synth for it?
So do you need to know the key of the vocal for something?

quote:

Originally posted by cryophonik If you've never done this before, here is the general approach that I recommend to get you started. Since 99% of EDM songs are in either natural minor or major key, this approach should work *most of the time*. 1. Turn off your computer and turn on your brain and ears (OK, I'm being somewhat facetious to make a point, which is to forget about using lame-ass software shortcuts and learning how to do this on your own). 2. As mentioned above, loop the vocal part. If it's a long a capella, you may want to loop it one section at a time (e.g., chorus, then verse, etc.). 3. Fire up a basic piano sound and start playing along with each looped section until you figure out each of the notes in the melody. Write them down, if necessary, but be sure to be consistent with your "black" keys - DO NOT mix sharps and flats. For example, don't write down one as Db and another as G# (call them Db and Ab, or C# and G#). You'll see why below. 4. Once you've figured out each of the notes, put them in alphabetical order and count the number of notes that have a sharp or a flat - again, I can't stress enough that you shouldn't have a mixture of sharps and flats. For example, Ab Bb C D Eb F G has 3 flats. You may find that there are a couple of "accidentals" (e.g., a B-natural and a Bb in the same song) - you'll need to listen to the context and how frequently each of the notes is used to make a determination. If one of the notes sounds out of place in the context of the rest of the track, then it is probably a non-harmonic note, so you can probably ignore it. 5. Look at the Circle of Fifths and find the key that has the same number of flats or sharps. In the example I used, it has 3 flats so it would be either Eb major or C minor. 6. From there, you have options. Depending on the melody, you may be able to use the minor key or the major key. Sometimes the melody will imply or even make it obvious that it is major or minor, but not always. You also may find that the songs in minor key use the harmonic or melodic version - you'll need to rely on some music theory knowledge and/or your ears to help you there, but that's getting a little beyond the scope of this primer. Listen to the last note of each section (e.g., chorus, verse) - does it sound like it has resolved, or creating tension? If it sounds like it has resolved, then sometimes knowing which note it is can help you decide whether to use major or minor. For example, if it sounds like it has resolved and the note is a C, then it's probably in C minor, because the Eb major chord (Eb/G/Bb) does not have a C in it. Conversely, if the note is a Bb, it is likely in Eb, since the Cmin chord (C/Eb/G) does not have a Bb in it. As I mentioned, it's not going to be this simple for every song, particularly if the song changes key, uses a lot of non-harmonic notes/chords, or is in one of the "church" modes (e.g., Dorian). But, this approach should work for most EDM tracks and will help improve your musical skills dramatically, whereas relying on software will not teach you much at all, except maybe how to drool out of the other side of your mouth while you're waiting for it to process the audio. And, don't worry, this isn't that difficult. After you've done this a handful times, you will quickly start to be able to skip many steps. A reasonably accomplished musician should be able to listen to a track, figure out the notes, and determine the key on the order of a few minutes without the use of software. But, you'll probably never get there if you continue to let software think for you.

Thanks for the advice mate.

This is very similar to how I was approaching it anyway, but I find it useful to get a second opinion from those with more knowledge than I, and you never know if there is a better way of doing something - im always willing to learn new techniques.

It's very easy for other people to be critical and mock you for not knowing certain things, but if you dont know - you dont know! you wasnt born with the knowledge, its something you have to learn, and sometimes that involves asking stupid questions!

Thanks for all the advice everyone!

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