yup. If you haven't noticed the huge change in intros over the last 5 years, well ....

It doesn't cost anything to sell on itunes. And labels marketing your tracks ? really ? Sure , there are less than 10 labels that are not run by complete half wits, but honestly.

LMFAO. That is EDM. and that shit is selling like crack. And guess who is playing it ? Rhetorical question. It doesn't fucking matter because nobody buy what djs play because for some reason, in the last 20 years, djs have stopped letting people know what they hell it is they are playing.

i mean you have a radio show, you name the tune. That is the point. It is a two way street. But these idiot djs that think they are helping artists by playing their track. I mean honestly. How is that going to sell if nobody knows what you are playing when you are playing it.

And this is why it is so essential for dj podcasts to have meta data that can at least tell the listener what track is playing if they want to buy it.

Turn on the radio, in the USA, 1/3 of top 40% is pretty much EDM. They don't sell to djs, they sell to people. And djs will play it because people have shown they want it. Djs are really at the back of the bus.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

then why not just show case your own shit to /on a padcast and see how well it sells your music

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney there is a myth that music revenue is down. It is up and i honestly think there was maybe 1 or 2 years where it wasn't up. It has consistently been higher every year. Where the money is , that is the only difference. There is way more ways to make sell your music. Beatport has such a small niche of consumers and considering the fact that normal people, yup, the average joe wants to buy dance music too, i just don't get it.

I dont think its down overall, but there is no doubt the old business model is gone. I agree that the sources have changed. Drastically. Still, that's just a matter of semantics.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney 1$ might not seem like alot. Guess how much most artists made from vynil ? You would be lucky to get 25 cents.

It was never the artists making the money of of vinyl, it was always the labels. EDM is a label-oriented business, always has been. That's another element that separates it from "traditional" music. I happen to like that's its about the label and not necessarily the artist.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney The point is that 10 cents, might seem like nothing but where as before , the amount of people you could reach was limited, you could technically sell 10 000 000 downloads on some random impulse buyers doing it at the same time.

Yeah, but you can count on one hand the number of EDM tracks that sold that many copies even in the vinyl's heyday. Nobody sells 10,000,000 downloads anymore, nobody. Hell the Beatport top 10 is routinely populated by tracks that struggle to reach 10,000 in sales, and those are supposed to be the "successful" artists.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney And that is why i think podcasts are powerful. Because music is an impulse purchase. The mac store model is based on impulse. 1 $ , ya nothing, but you just buy because it is so easy. People don't want to have to join things. 1 place to buy everything. That is why itunes is where you can make money. Beatport, you make absolutely nothing.

Well, anyone who is on a label with a halfway decent distributor typically gets tracks on both iTunes and Beatport. All of the major digital distributors put music on both sites and about 10 others. Typically they will get the tracks on Beatport for an exclusive period (2-4 weeks), then they go out to all the other sites (iTunes, AudioJelly, DJDownload, TrackitDown, etc.)

Its not really about the availability of tracks on iTunes. There is plenty of EDM on iTunes, its simply that the majority of the buying public (i.e. DJs) for EDM goes to Beatport. To Beatport's (and other sites ) credit, they are designed to cater to dance music where as iTunes is not. I cant really browse by genre or label or remixer in any meaningful way on iTunes like I can on Beatport. i dont have a hold bin or a WAV option or a Beatbot or DJ tools or any of the other tools that Beatport provides that really only provide value for a catalogue of EDM tracks.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney But if people don't know what is playing, well fuck, i mean i don't really know how else you can fuck your scene in the ass in any more concrete way.

Like I said, I don't think the general public is the market for EDM. There are still plenty of Prodigy's out there that make "electronic" music for the masses, but artists like that never really catered to DJ's in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by stewart.m because it costs money to sell your shit on itunes and many producers rely on labels to market their tracks knowing djs will go and buy the music.

This is true, but most rookie producers come into a deal expecting a label to "market" their tracks. Most labels wont lift a finger to market your tracks or any other tracks on their label. You have to do that. The only thing that a label can provide you is a context to get your tracks on major digital download sites and give it a fighting chance to be seen by potential buyers.

quote:

Originally posted by stewart.m question do the buying public really buy dance music as a single anymore?

I don't think so, not unless its mainstream or a "radio edit", but I'm sure others will disagree.

Like I said, I don't think dance music is designed to be consumed in single serve doses, but rather as part of a whole, i.e. a mixed set.

this thread is not for my benefit. I work for people that know what they are doing.

And ya , since we laughed the other day, Stromae,alors on dance, a track nobody really liked and a track nobody will remember, 1 million copies sold.

That number was just conjecture. The point is that the population is growing, and you are deluded if you think dance music is not for the average person. People listen to it in their cars, at the gym , in every club. Sure , i suppose that minimal progressive i could be more famous but like i'm too minimal for that sure, ya people won't buy that. But that is because it is kinda music for a small niche of scenesters,

AGain, stop getting so caught up in tthe fucking details. The point, and it really isn't that hard to get, is that people are missing out on huge revenue streams. I mean the fact i wanted to buy a track but coudn't because i didn't know what it was called, well guess how often that happens. Alot. You would think producers would be interested in this. Instead you get fuckheads saying, oh ya, well um lets see your sales.

And the person that said that. Please do get someone to smack you with something solid and heavy. Thanks.

That is the take home message.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Jan-11-2012 at 21:57

i get your point more now its true it what you're saying there does seem to be a big gap in the market as a consumer i rely on key web sits and friends to get the tunes i want to hear.

as a producer its a tough market that takes time and money and to simply put my shit on itunes and hope to meet that demand seems pie in the sky to me.

this is for djs. The point is why are djs not doing this ? And why are producers and their labels not doing simple shit like this that will make them money. IF you are a producer, and people are playing your shit in sets, guess what, they owe you money. What they are doing is illegal. Your label doesn't care because they don't have any money to do anything about it. Now if there was some sort of unwritten rule that this is what you do, call it what you want, peer pressure, everyone, including djs would be better off. Djs will say oh i'm promoting your track. No you aren't. Because unless i know the track being played, which i never will because nobody seems to think that taking 5 minutes and making a podcast have chapters, well i have no fucking idea what track it was. And set lists are pointless. you really expect me to count the tracks ? HOnestly. So djs are really doing absolutely nothing for you. UNless they are known djs which 99% aren't.

i mean all the djs were being little babies in the thread in the other forum yet they constantly whine that producers are taking their jobs. dey took errr joobbsss dirk er .......

guess why ? Maybe if people worked together, producer woudn't have to dj. I mean the point is that i wanted to spend money, and because of the shitty way people have things set up, well i couldn't. Now multiply this by 1 million people. It isn't such a small deal.

So ya , i had an experience. And wondered why people make it so damn hard for me to spend my money.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

the honist answer is i dont really know why maybe its down to thinking the industry is self sufficient and you have found a hole in the market.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney That number was just conjecture. The point is that the population is growing, and you are deluded if you think dance music is not for the average person.

The type of commercial music you cited is not really any different than commercial rap or commercial pop. Just because Kayne West uses Daft Punk samples in a track does that make it dance music? Of course not. I think there is a fundamental difference between the type of music you cited (commercialized dance "pop") and the Beatport top 10, which are tracks made for DJ's.

So in that sense, no I don't believe that there is a single track in the Beatport top 10 that's for the average person. Its music made by DJ's for DJ's period. There is plenty of commercialized electronic music out there, typically marketed as "Electronica". Bands like Prodigy from yesteryear and bands today like M83 are designing their music for these markets. They are not, nor ever were, artists that catered to DJ's.

There are some people who see this as a bad thing, but it is the way that things have been done for 20+ years. Many of the people who believe that come from a "traditional" music background, not a DJ background, which is why they have trouble understanding it all. Despite all this, the industry is still here, so they must be doing something right.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney AGain, stop getting so caught up in tthe fucking details.

I'm not really "getting caught up in the details" as you say, I'm just commenting on the state of the industry, both then and now. Its just the way it is and when you come from a DJ background (as most who run this industry do), it makes perfect sense. Obviously people like Mathew Adell (Beatport CEO) are doing something right because they have managed to capitalize on this market. Beatport is doing quite well, as are labels owners like Mark Knight (Toolroom). They seem to be doing quite well.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney The point, and it really isn't that hard to get, is that people are missing out on huge revenue streams.

I mean, I'd really like to believe that, but I've met some pretty fucking smart people in my time in this industry, and I feel confident that if there was such "huge revenue streams" out there, as you put it, that someone would have figured it out by now.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney I mean the fact i wanted to buy a track but coudn't because i didn't know what it was called, well guess how often that happens. Alot. You would think producers would be interested in this. Instead you get fuckheads saying, oh ya, well um lets see your sales.

The average podcast consumer of an EDM podcast knows where the tracks lists are if the podcast doesn't feature chapters. Some do already, like Matt Darey's Noctural. The top listened to podcasts have whole sites dedicated to them, such as Trance Around The World with Above & Beyond. It isnt hard to find the track list. Even if it doesnt have the track list, people trainspot the shit out of a mic all the time. Look at the comments sections on sites like Soundcloud or on [email protected].

In any case, it wouldn't matter for about 50% of the top podcasts, because they play loads of exclusive tracks that haven't been released. So it doesn't matter if there is a link to buy it because the track isn't out yet. In some cases, the tracks aren't released for months. A lot of these podcasts are listened to precisely BECAUSE they play loads of exclusive and unreleased music. In an industry with such disposable tracks, where everyone sounds the same, exclusivity is EVERYTHING.

That so goes against the "traditional" music marketing model, but that's how it's been done in EDM since the beginning. Its the digital equivalent of the old vinyl "white label" or "test pressing".

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney And the person that said that. Please do get someone to smack you with something solid and heavy. Thanks. That is the take home message.

I don't know who you were directing that to, but I never said anything like that.

look Deadmau5 and Skrillex made a killing from itunes. That is EDM. It isn't really commercial in any way. PEople are interested. The fact you don't seem to get this is rather scary in that you are a dj. You should know this. This is your job.

And how it was done is irrelevant. Labels should realize dj promos mean really little. If it isn't being named, it isn't being purchased. What kind of idiot rationalizes loss of income with the sort of nuttery nonsense such as what you mentioned, well um thats jsut the way it is. No that is the way it is for you guys. Because you guys and grant me a wide birth when i say you, but YOU = not very bright.

Any CEO of any company would be having a fucking fist fight with his secretary if he was told ya, people want to buy your shit, but like, they just don't know where to get it or what its called. I mean this isn't complicated.

And Beatport is doing well. Great. How is that releveant in any fucking way ? Beatport has the luxury of a thousand labels with 5 producers that have no fucking business sense what so ever. So ya, i'm sure he is doing great. But great is relative. He is making peanuts compared to what say itunes is making. And the fact that he hasn't made the connection that hmm, djs buy music, why ? to play to people, wait a second, so if i follow this logic, wait , wait , that means people like EDM. so hmmm, maybe i could like sell to people too. I mean this fucking embarrassing.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Jan-11-2012 at 23:15

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney look Deadmau5 and Skrillex made a killing from itunes. That is EDM. It isn't really commercial in any way. PEople are interested.

Skrillex and Deadmau5 are absolutely commercialized pop nowawadays. There was a time when Deadmau5 didn't have that label, but that time has long since passed.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney The fact you don't seem to get this is rather scary in that you are a dj. You should know this. This is your job.

Not really, I play music geared towards a niche market. I know this. I'm not trying to pay the bills making music.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney And how it was done is irrelevant.

Not really, but it says a lot about your mindset that you would think that.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Labels should realize dj promos mean really little. If it isn't being named, it isn't being purchased.

Actually they mean a lot, because in order to rise above the (considerable) noise, it is necessary to create a pre-sales buzz. That's quite often the difference between a track that sells 20 copies and 2,000. That's how things have been done in this industry since the beginning.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney What kind of idiot rationalizes loss of income with the sort of nuttery nonsense such as what you mentioned, well um thats jsut the way it is. No that is the way it is for you guys. Because you guys and grant me a wide birth when i say you, but YOU = not very bright.

No one is "rationalizing loss of income", there just isn't this big pile of money lying out there, like you claim. If there was, the EDM industry wouldn't be struggling like the rest of the industry.

I'm pretty sure you know this, but you're just trying to get us to take the piss.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Any CEO of any company would be having a fucking fist fight with his secretary if he was told ya, people want to buy your shit, but like, they just don't know where to get it or what its called. I mean this isn't complicated.

I'm not really even sure what this is supposed to mean...

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney And Beatport is doing well. Great. How is that releveant in any fucking way ?

Because Beatport went from nothing to the market leader in no time flat. If that's not business success in this market, I don't know what is. Plenty of other record stores tried this (try Plastic Fantastic), but Beatport made it work. Kudos to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney Beatport has the luxury of a thousand labels with 5 producers that have no fucking business sense what so ever. So ya, i'm sure he is doing great. But great is relative. He is making peanuts compared to what say itunes is making.

Maybe, but then again, the market he caters to is several orders of magnitude smaller than the iTunes market, AND he didn't have to make deals with the big 5 to sell their music. Only a company the size of Apple could have pulled that off, not some tiny internet record store from Denver.

quote:

Originally posted by Looney4Clooney And the fact that he hasn't made the connection that hmm, djs buy music, why ? to play to people, wait a second, so if i follow this logic, wait , wait , that means people like EDM. so hmmm, maybe i could like sell to people too. I mean this fucking embarrassing.

Again, I just don't think that market is there. I don't think people are missing out on huge piles of money just because they forgot to attach a track list to a podcast. That's pretty absurd.

Last edited by Eric J on Jan-12-2012 at 00:39

let me dumb it down.

i was listening to a podcast. I liked a particular track. I wanted to buy it. What is absurd is that you have no idea how common this is. What is absurd is that you don't realize how every single major pop act has been brushed with some elements of EDM. Britney Spears has fucking dubstep in her single of her last album. IF you think EDM does not have a big market, you are stupid, or you have been living under a rock. The problem is that people don't have access. And part of that problem are the djs. The djs really don't make it a priority to let people know what is being played when. That is absurd. It is absurd that there is a huge demand that is not being met because nobody knows what to buy. They know to listen to dj what ever the fuck his name is. And that is the problem.

You are out of touch mate.

Again, everything you refer to has to do with a market intended for DJS . Stop and realize how fucking small the dj market is. Ok . just take a second, and think about that. Now think how irrelevant you are in the grand scheme of things. PROMO does not happen if the record is not named. And you don't fucking start giving promos so that by the time you release the track to the public, it has been forgotten.

People like you remind of the old industry. The guys that were like, naw , mp3s will never catch. i mean, what will people look at. You are not at all in touch with how the industry is. And industry, i mean music. Genres don't matter. The problem is that as a dj, and only a dj, you can't accept how irrelevant you are in the grand scheme of things. All djs ? no . But you? yes. Unless you have a few thousand people following your podcasts, you could die tomorrow and have absolutely no affect on the industry. i mean you are completely outside of the system.

And the worst part is that you could set a system outside of itunes. LInks to actual artist pages. For each track. I mean it really is not that difficult. But djs , for some reason don't want to help their scene. And this is why you get people like Joel making fun of djs. All djs ? no , there just seems to be so many fucking idiots about. Like the special olympics came to town.

And you are right, the EDM scene is suffering but not all artists. WHy ? because there are smart artists, and dumb artists. Well and bad artists. But how this is a defence i don't get. Yes there is money there. The problem is people don't seem to understand where it is. Do you have any idea how much money Joel made by licensing less than a minute of one track on CSI ? More than you make in a year. Ya. Trust me. And guess what, that show is syndicated and there will be repeats. There is money. Not if you are dumb out of touch and holding on to an antiquated model that worked 20 years ago.

___________________
"This is why Superman works alone." GC
old stuff from days gone by (2001-2004)
Mad For Brad's gay little contest

Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Jan-12-2012 at 01:41

OK, well if you are simply going to throw insults and not address a single one of my points, then it's obvious you here just see who will take the piss and not have any kind of rational discussion, so there really isn't much point in continuing this discussion.