quote:

Originally posted by Excite let's make something clear here: i don't give a shit if u hate america. there is no justification for killing innocent people.

unless you accidentally drop a bomb on them...

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jimtran.net

quote:

Originally posted by Excite there is no justification for killing innocent people.

Innocence is in the eye of the beholder.

I swear you Canadians will never stop crying.....lol


stop it! it just makes you all look so weak and helpless

shouldnt the subject of this thread be

"Why people dislike america" hate is such a strong word

Couldnt you just wait till the new political-forum opened?

"Innocence is in the eye of the beholder."
Hm...what isn't then?

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant Hm...what isn't then?

Examples of what would not be in the eye of the beholder include things like phsyical attributes, spatial relationships - almost anything that can be scientifically measured or mechanically analyzed. Basically, any attribute that does not rely on an abstract concept.

Nice. In Theory. Cause following that, I could go out and kill a woman because she smells bad (that would be in the nose of the beholder, i guess?) but i wouldn't be allowed to kill her because I don't like he fact she weighs more than 200 pounds(if it can be measured mechanically that this is not the truth).

Oh COME on.
Why make certain things more complicated that they are? By saying innocence is relative/subjective you justify for example, islamist terrorism which proclaims any non-fundamentalist Muslim as an enemy.

___________________
"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant Nice. In Theory. Cause following that, I could go out and kill a woman because she smells bad (that would be in the nose of the beholder, i guess?) but i wouldn't be allowed to kill her because I don't like he fact she weighs more than 200 pounds(if it can be measured mechanically that this is not the truth).

That's not at all what I'm suggesting. I would merely argue that the killing of people should be treated the same regarless of whether or not those people are considered "innocent" or not. This doesn't mean it has to be tolerated.

quote:

Oh COME on. Why make certain things more complicated that they are? By saying innocence is relative/subjective you justify for example, islamist terrorism which proclaims any non-fundamentalist Muslim as an enemy.

If you want to consider innocence to be an objective attribute, then what criteria do you recommend for evaluating it?

I am not making things more complicated than they are, I'm making them simpler by removing the issue of innocence (which is meaningless rhetoric anyway) from the table which ought to allow us to better evaluate the real issues at hand.

quote:

Originally posted by ProDiGaL how sadly ironic

so true!

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter That's not at all what I'm suggesting. I would merely argue that the killing of people should be treated the same regarless of whether or not those people are considered "innocent" or not. This doesn't mean it has to be tolerated. If you want to consider innocence to be an objective attribute, then what criteria do you recommend for evaluating it? I am not making things more complicated than they are, I'm making them simpler by removing the issue of innocence (which is meaningless rhetoric anyway) from the table which ought to allow us to better evaluate the real issues at hand.

Checkmate.

J/k .

I as opposed to yu do not think every killing = every killing. I do distinguish. That's exactely where innocence comes into play. Based on simple facts. I don't thinkt he attempt to kill me can be scientifically measuered; nevertheless that's a situation where the person I might kill in order to prevent my own death would NOT be innocent anymore(as in NOT trying to kill me). Innocence/guilt is imo simply based on acts and in how far they break the rules the society agreed on (thouh shall not..em fuck the biblic language: you must't kill f.e.). Considering the circumstences under which murders happened is on of the most natural things of our law.
So to come back to the terrorism issue: Yes those victims were innocent. Why? The claim of the terrosits that they were "evil americans" or just a "legitimate target in a war on the imperialistic means of the USA" is nothing that would justify their attack. Not thinking the same way, not believing in the same things, being part of this or that country/people, is nothing to be guilty of. That would contradcit that human rights which state that every human is eual to the other. Innate right, bla bla

Whatever.

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

Does it really matter what people say? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if that opinion may seem stereotypical, unethical, or just plain stupid. It always seems like the people who write these type of things are the ones that stand out so therefore it may seem like all Americans think that way. No one ever looks at the Americans who don't say stupid shit. Anyway even if the whole American nation says things like this, it still makes no right to attack or kill people. Killing people solves nothing esp. when you know we are eventually going to retaliate and come back with 10x the force. The USA has back from so many countries and if one country wants to try to blow us up, they are gonna get retaliation from a handful of countries. Terrorism is just plain stupid. Right now in Virginia, we have some sniper on the loose killing random people. Is it really worth killing and ending another life? But as for the people who stereotype Americans for what they aren't, please look at the facts and don't let one person speak for a whole nation.

Peace