quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King I beleive part of the reason why these suicide bombers exist is because they are driven to insanity in part after seeing Israeli tanks and guns blow up their families and friends...

no, i dont care how insane you are, there is no justification for committing such acts. ironically, 'families and friends' would not be blown up by tanks and guns if there was no terror in the first case. so why even do it? he is only insuring this will continue.
it makes no sense, i guess that would explain his insanity

quote:

And to those who agree that its worth killing Palestinians to "weed out terrorists".... you are no worse than a terrorist yourself... a life is a life....as said before... we all bleed the same colour.

i agree that palestinians who use terror agianst civilians as a valid military option should be killed. civilians may get killed in the proccess but that is neither a want or desired outcome. No where can you prove that is was the intention of the IDF to kill innocent civilians, which is not the case with some palestinians.

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy no, i dont care how insane you are, there is no justification for committing such acts. ironically, 'families and friends' would not be blown up by tanks and guns if there was no terror in the first case. so why even do it? he is only insuring this will continue. it makes no sense, i guess that would explain his insanity

I think you're oversimplifying here, both sides are causing the conflict to continue.

Just as there's no justification for suicide attacks there are no justifications for continued oppression of the Palestinians (ie: that which initially causes people to go nuts and blow themselves up), or attacks on their compounds in response to the suicide attacks.

The conflict has been going on for a long time, and it's going to take a monumental breakthrough for it to end IMHO, but taking sides is just crazy at this point, both sides are wrong, because both sides are causing the deaths of innocent civilians.

I don't care for Arafat, but I don't care for Sharon either, I think they're both contributing to the conflict. I understand that if you're a Jew, or an Muslim, or from the area that you're naturally going to have an opinion, but as an outsider I can see with *very clear* eyes that there *aren't any clean hands* in that conflict.

Instead of worrying about laying blame the parties involved should worry about fixing the problems that cause the continued violence, but because of the long history involved I just don't see any breakthroughs forthcoming, especially with Sharon and Arafat in command.

quote:

Originally posted by CortexBomb I think you're oversimplifying here, both sides are causing the conflict to continue. Just as there's no justification for suicide attacks there are no justifications for continued oppression of the Palestinians (ie: that which initially causes people to go nuts and blow themselves up), or attacks on their compounds in response to the suicide attacks.

true, although it might be a simplification it in no way strays from the truth. the 'oppression' that has caused these recent acts of terror has only gone on for just over two years (since camp david accords failed in 2000). after the 1992 olso accords were signed, there was NO oppression in most of the occupied territories. the PLO had complete autonomus control in public affairs (schools, taxes, etc) and control over security in alsmot 40% of the land and had control of public affairs and shared control of security with israel in another roughly 30% of the land. so to say that palesinians have been living in an opressed society for decades is a flat of myth. yet despite this there was still terror.
so to use the israel 'oppression' as the problem to the terrorism is nothing more then an excuse

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

I think the Palestinians ought to leave. If you're kidnapped from your house and enslaved, and you escape and return 5 years later to find someone else has been squatting on your land, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to leave.

Giving the Palestinians their own state is absolutely preposterous. The best way to prevent terrorism is by ensuring that groups that commit it never achieve that which they desire. If we give the Palestinians anything, we only further legitimize terrorism as a mechanism to bring about sociopolitical change. We do NOT want to do this.

The Native Americans have FAR more a legitimate claim to an independent state or states than the palestinians do, but giving the palestinians one just because they blow people up would set a horrendous precedent. That is not the example a civilized world ought to be trying to set.

As a result, while I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinian people, I can't support them in any way so long as many of them continue to employ such tactics.

where do you want 5-6 millions people to go?

why don't israel just gaz every palestinian? it would be easier and faster. I heard that the US had extra reserves of lethal gaz...

1+1=2



























































idiot

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[/IMG]http://i54.tinypic.com/ngycqo.png[/IMG]

my question to the IL side : why not let the UN go there ?


*edit*

and by the way i've read some things here that really shook the inside of me , i don't need to quote them or answer them since i consider it bull manure ... (it's not u Izzy don't worry)

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"A style that's impossible to define. Prog? Hardly. Tech house? Not boring enough. It's like trippy twisted acid house but deep and funky. See, I told you - impossible."

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 my question to the IL side : why not let the UN go there ?

3 things:
the UN's behavior before the 6 days war (leaving Sinai and make place for Nasser's troops)
the UN's behavior after and actually DURING the kidnapping of israeli soldiers at the lebanese border 2 years ago (watching passively and even FILMING it, and on top of that denying everything in order to keep the "neutral position")
the UN's general attitude towards the conflict and Israel in particular (no other country has recieved so many attacking and condeming resolutions, for every little incident Syria calls the UN General Assembly with yet another resolution "calling for an end of Israeli agression" passed, thereby totally ignoring its actualy reasons: palestinian terrorsim and violence)
The UN was also dumb enough to openly proclaim their anti-israeli position in the 1970's when the Jewish ideology Zionism was officially declared as "racist".

Bravo! That's the neutral partner we need

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

Everyone ignoring the fact that today's inscrease of golbal terrorism is not related to the "experimental field" Israel is by the way dumb naive or both. It's simple: iranians syrians iraquis and saudis support and in some cases pay and organize palestinian terrorism, they see its effects on the Israel-Palestinian relationship and the "feedback" by the Western world and draw conclusions: Yes, its worthy

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"Those are my principles, if you don't like them... well, I have others.”

quote:

Originally posted by fastmp3 my question to the IL side : why not let the UN go there ?

well as people have found out, i dont hold the UN to any value. but let me give you some more specific reasons with regards to israel to prove why the UN sucks

* In order to be on the UN security council you have to be a member of a regional group. Arab countries have barred israel from joining the asian group. and although in may 2000 israel accepted an invitation to be a temporary member of the Western Europe and Others (WEOG) reginal group, it still has no access to have any say on the security council.

* in 1974 resolution 3379 slandered Zionism (the jewish nationalist movement) by branding it as a form of rasicm. it was only repealed in 1991 and I think it was about two years ago in a UN summit in south africe that the word zionism was almost equated to racism agian, luckly that didnt pass because of strong US pressure. and it was only in Nov 1998, 50 years after the founding of the UN that the word anti-semetism appeared in a UN resolution.

* Of all of the condemnations that The Commission on Human Rights has put forth, 26% refer to israel alone (!!!) and yet rouge states like syria and libya have never been critized.

* both the madrid (1991) and oslo peace accords (1992) call for direct and bilateral negotations, but the UN constantly undercuts this principle. the general assembly routinely adopts resolutions that attempt to impose solutions to critical issues. Ironically, security council reolutions 242 and 338 that everyone refers (the ones after 1967) to call for bilateral negotiations as well but are still undermined by UN general assembly resolutions.

* seeing as the UN does not actually do anything to defend israel in the northern border with lebanon what good will it do in the territories? The hizbollah routinely fires rocket rounds into israel proper from within lebanon and the UN does abosolutley nothing about it, not even a single condemnation of violence.

well thats a few of my gripes about the UN with regard to israel, i bet i could think of more if i thought longer (or did more research)


---edit----
i see trancegiant beat me on a couple of my points, good job bro

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek where do you want 5-6 millions people to go? why don't israel just gaz every palestinian? it would be easier and faster. I heard that the US had extra reserves of lethal gaz... 1+1=2

It's not my problem or the Israeli's problem where the people go. If someone breaks into your house and starts living in your basement, you don't really care where they go or if they have any place to go, it's only your concern that they leave. That issue isn't relevant to the legitimacy of claims to the land in the area, anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek idiot

Please don't abase yourself. We're trying to have an intelligent conversation here - if you're going to resort to personal attacks, you're not welcome here.

quote:

Originally posted by Arbiter It's not my problem or the Israeli's problem where the people go. If someone breaks into your house and starts living in your basement, you don't really care where they go or if they have any place to go, it's only your concern that they leave. That issue isn't relevant to the legitimacy of claims to the land in the area, anyway.

dude you took his house first don't forget

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"A style that's impossible to define. Prog? Hardly. Tech house? Not boring enough. It's like trippy twisted acid house but deep and funky. See, I told you - impossible."