quote:

Originally posted by Blik Religion is one of the worst things that has ever happened to human beings

a-men to that!

(bad pun intended )

___________________
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Interesting convo, I agree with what most everyone has said here.

Renegade's post was particularly nice, I think the thing that people have to keep in mind when dealing with any overly religious people is that rational argument doesn't work.

Because of that, I usually don't go too far in my conversations. Religion is based on faith in something which can't be proven, and in Christianity's case, complete obedience to and unquestioning faith in the laws of God, as such, trying to rationally argue about anything that they see as "evil" is pointless.

I don't have any problem with people who are religious in general, but I agree that people who push it are annoying as hell, particularly people who pass out leaflets and such in front of public places. I've actually been tempted to print up little Communist propaganda things to hand to *them* when they try to push their religious BS on me

Religion in general has caused a lot of the world's problems, but a large number of people seem to need a "higher power" or purpose to their lives. I can understand that, once you get to the point of believing that everything is relative, and that the only meaning that life has is the one that you give it, it can be hard to go on at times. But for me that's been part of my growing process, as a human.

In an ideal world, yes, organised religion would be non-existant, and I say that simply because of the number of wars, political issues, and general BS that have gone down because of it. I have no problem with religious teachings in general, I just dislike what they can lead to people *doing*. :shrug:

Renegade, I like you taking the opposite point here, that was cool, lol.

However the attitude that you used in that rebutle is exactly the topic of this discussion.

"You" explained everything in terms of God. Well, if I don't beleive in God that means that there is no explination of my life in "your" parameters. "God wouldn't have given us free will if he didn't want us to use it" Well, that kind of leaves me out doesn't it? This is all I'm saying. When I talk about life and the world I don't alienate(perhaps not the best word) any racial groups or anything like that. I don't go around telling everyone there isn't a God, so why should "you" go around telling everyone there is?

That, I guess is the problem in my mind with the system of Christianity.

___________________
"Oh NO! It seems the world has been infected by a disease called shitty music.
We've had innocculations for some time now but the populace keeps refusing it.
You don't want it? Fine. Give me all the vaccine and a needle and I'll fucking overdose.
It'll be the best day of my life."

quote:

Renegade, I like you taking the opposite point here, that was cool, lol. However the attitude that you used in that rebutle is exactly the topic of this discussion.

Well, my post started off as a genuine attempt to "argue from the other side" so to speak, but it degenerated into a long-winded stereotype of the average Chrsitian mentality. But having argued from the atheist side so many times, I don't think I can add anything that I haven't already said in the past. Therefore, to keep my mind fresh, and to continue in my quest to understand the "other side" I shall adopt my Christian persona once again.

Please bear in mind I don't necessarily agree with anything I'm saying here, but I'd be interested to see how you all respond to it.

quote:

There was a time when religion filled the void of ignorance with pisitive messege but that was thousands of years ago. In todays world it's a monopoloy of a minority and the plague of the majority. It's exploited by governments to create division between human beings. It is a weapon of control and for all practical purposes it is very efficient.

I agree, Orbital, religion on the wider scale has, throughout the course of history, been used as a means to satisfy selfish whims and desires that, in the long run, serve only to erode the positive messages that religion provides. However, we can see that when religion is accepted in-and-of itself, and is treated as an end-in-itself (rather than a means to a separate, perhaps more selfish end) we can still see the positive influence that religion exerts on society, particularly on individuals.

While unscrupulous members of our governments and other large organisations with a vested interest in acheiving a certain end may occasionally employ religion as the means to acheiving that end, those of us with a real passion for Jesus and for God still view religion - when practised properly - as having an unassailably positive effect on the individuals fortunate enough to submit to it. I could list dozens of people that I have come in contact with who have been turned away from lives of crime and anger by Jesus' healing light: how can you say that this life-changing property of religion isn't beneficial?

Similarly, I would argue that when religion is used to divide nations, or when a particular nation identifies itself with a given religion and is willing to go to war over it, that the fault lies not with the sullied religion in itself, but rather with the politics that employ it. If religion is ever employed as a means to exert control over a population, and exploit it as such, then one can hardly fault the religion, or at least teaching that the religion is founded on. Can we really fault Jesus if a certain leader wish to exploit his message to divide rather than unite the population, as Jesus' message was indeed intended to do? I hardly think so. It's important to separate the religion from the politics that govern it, and the individuals who dictate the politics.

quote:

just cause i cant see it doesnt mean its not there, but just cause you believe it is doesnt mean it is either!

That's true, biznology. I certainly can't know (for the time being anyway) whether or not God exists, much less demonstrate his existence to you. I suspect that the Christian's reasons for believing may seem foreign to athesists such as yourself, but it doesn't make them any less valid. Are logic and evidence the only tools we have to realise what is true? Have you ever heard of something called intuition?

It's hard to explain what I feel sometimes, but suffice to say, after I opened up my heart to God, I knew instantly he was there. I can't see him, no, nor can I demonstrate what I feel to you, but it doesn't make the feeling any less real. I have seen God change people, and I know that he has changed my life, and guides me whenever I feel lost. You could argue, perhaps, that I'm just deluding myself into believing these things, which would be a fair point, but I don't think it's fair to pass judgement until you too approach God with an open mind instead of continuously harping on about "evidence" and "logic". Sometimes, biznology, we become so certain about our perspective, so certain that we have the absolute means by which to distinguish fact from fancy, that we lose sight of what we really should be looking for. You sit up on your high horse with your "superior" rationale, but you forget this very important point: you will never find God if you don't search for him. And it says, right there in the Bible, that God isn't discovered as you might discover, say, buried treasure where you can use a solid, tangible guide to discover what it is you are looking for. No siree. God doesn't just reveal himself to you, you must first reveal yourself to him. Open up your heart and pray: "find me God!". Then, while it may be a little bit hard to detect at times, you will slowly feel God come into your life. There will not be any burning bushes or parting seas, but believe me, you'll notice pretty quickly the difference it can make to your own life.

However, until you do this and you do it properly, I suppose you'll never understand what I feel right now. Doors will remain closed unless you take the effort to open them.

quote:

I don't have any problem with people who are religious in general, but I agree that people who push it are annoying as hell, particularly people who pass out leaflets and such in front of public places.

All we do when we "push it" (a phrase I don't particularly like) all we are doing is promoting our message to others, in the hope that they may one day feel the same thing that we do. If people do not wish to receive God into their lives, then they needn't read what we give them or they should block their ears and ignore what we try to tell them!

Wouldn't you be prepared to educate people on what you take to be the truth, and on that passion which resides closest to you? Of course you would, otherwise you wouldn't be here imparting your views now!

quote:

Well, if I don't beleive in God that means that there is no explination of my life in "your" parameters.

You can ignore the laws of gravity, and deny that they exist, but you will continue to fall whenever you jump. In the same way, whether you choose to believe in what I know to be real or not is up to you, but suffice to say, God will continue to exist and will continue to affect the world in a way you didn't even know existed.

Whatever you choose to believe, you still exist between the parameters God set out for humanity when he created us. Therefore, yes, your life can be explained - and is still meaningful - within "my" Christian parameters and I see you as a child of God, whether you choose to acknowledge him or not.

(I'll continue this later, I've gotta get to work).

___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

renegade, nice job, man you wouldnt belive how many times i've heard those exact arguements, even exact lines from the religious texans that go to my school.

quote:

Originally posted by CortexBomb Renegade's post was particularly nice, I think the thing that people have to keep in mind when dealing with any overly religious people is that rational argument doesn't work. Because of that, I usually don't go too far in my conversations. Religion is based on faith in something which can't be proven, and in Christianity's case, complete obedience to and unquestioning faith in the laws of God, as such, trying to rationally argue about anything that they see as "evil" is pointless. I don't have any problem with people who are religious in general, but I agree that people who push it are annoying as hell, particularly people who pass out leaflets and such in front of public places. I've actually been tempted to print up little Communist propaganda things to hand to *them* when they try to push their religious BS on me

first lol at the handing them propoganda, might be useful to have one ready in the back-pack just for laughs.

secondly seeing as i've also witnessed thats its impossible to use rational arguements agianst 'the believers', so come to think of it are there any good irrational arguements one can use in order to genuinely stump the christian point of view? ( might as well sink down to their level )

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy so come to think of it are there any good irrational arguements one can use in order to genuinely stump the christian point of view? ( might as well sink down to their level )

I think the heart of an irrational argument is an irrational religion. Because of this I propose the best way to make an irrational argument is to come up with a wholly ridiculous and nonsensical religion that you can defend on the same terms as religious people use to defend theirs.

A project of this scale would be far, far beyond the realm of a simple forum, but it certainly seems like it'd be a fun thing to do given some spare time

just say this next time.

the constitution guarantees you the freedom of religion, so you can believe and worship any diety of your choosing.
guess what?
the same constitution guarantees me freedom from religion.

someone talking religion to you is violating your civil rights man. the government was smart in staying out of this one. separation of church and state. you remember the whole mess with the two words "under god" in the pledge of allegiance? just two little words, but because the government can't make any decisions in anything where religion is involved, can't do a thing.

i hate ppl who constantly bug me about bible study.
here are some of the things i said to one lucky guy.

if your god is so great, so powerful, he has a grand purpose, why does he cause so much suffering? it was his will? then you should be happy for all the people who died on 9/11 because they got to ascend into heaven. yet all the religious leaders were saying we need to come together and pray and give comfort, and remember the dead and so on... but if it was his plan, why pray for the dead, and their survivors? that means we have no free will? everything's been already planned by him? how can you live like that? if you're religious, you should be celebrating, or blowing your head off.

did god create us, or did we create god to comfort us about an afterlife? and why does religion need a hierarchy? pope, bishop, abbot, cardinal... i'm catholic by the way. non-practicing of course. i thought everyone was equal in the eyes of the lord. just like a republican democracy is supposed to be equal representation. shit, not supposed to mix religion and government together. it might be a joke i heard, but seems like the politicians f*** you here and now and the priests get you in the afterlife. and if your catholic, ha ha. just plain f***ed. .
had a long shitty day, can't think straight.
b back later

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door
I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

"Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss his ass?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, he'll kick the shit out of you."

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropists. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do what ever wants, and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass."

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million
dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and he kicks the shit out of you."

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the
million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street."

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"

John: "Hank has certain 'connections.' "

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And
remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the shit of you."

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him..."

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me: "Then how do you kiss his ass?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

Me: "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for your self."

John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on "From the desk of Karl" letterhead. There were eleven items listed:
From the desk of:
KARL
1. Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't drink.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the shit out of you.

Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's Letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."

Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me: "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true too."

Me: "But 9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from outer of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me: "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."

Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic. That's no different than saying 'Hank's right because he says he's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking!"

Me: "But... oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary blushes. John says: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: "There's no need for such
language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: "I am not listening to this. La la la la la la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."

Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary faints. John catches her: "Well, if I'd known you where one of those, I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you, I'll be there counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
Ketchup anyone?

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

LoL!

Great post Izzy, that's go to be the funniest thing I've read on here to date

Anyone who says a political forum has to be dead-on serious all the time needs to come take a look at this post

Izzy, that is by far the single best description of Christianity I've ever read. Not to mention it was fuckin' hilarious in the meantime. But that is exactly how Christianity is set up. Sometimes I laugh about Religion cus it is just that frickin ridiculous. Izzy, where did you get that?

I don't even think I have to argue any more, just point at that post, rofl.

___________________
"Oh NO! It seems the world has been infected by a disease called shitty music.
We've had innocculations for some time now but the populace keeps refusing it.
You don't want it? Fine. Give me all the vaccine and a needle and I'll fucking overdose.
It'll be the best day of my life."

Izzy, that was the single most accurate description of Christianity I've ever seen. I laugh at Religion sometimes when people push it because it sounds just that ridiculous. Where did you find that?

I don't think I'll argue any more, I'll just point at that. hehehe...

___________________
"Oh NO! It seems the world has been infected by a disease called shitty music.
We've had innocculations for some time now but the populace keeps refusing it.
You don't want it? Fine. Give me all the vaccine and a needle and I'll fucking overdose.
It'll be the best day of my life."

quote:

are there any good irrational arguements one can use in order to genuinely stump the christian point of view?

Yes, I have one that I love.



Can God create a rock so heavy that he cannot move it?

If he can then there is now a rock he can't move...boom...he isn't all powerfull.

If he cannot then, well, he isn't all powerfull either.



Too bad we don't have a christian in the forum to see his reaction Actually, I wish we did have at least one, instead of all athiests. I would actually like to be able to discuss without haveing Renegade pretend to be a Christian Stereotype.

___________________
"Oh NO! It seems the world has been infected by a disease called shitty music.
We've had innocculations for some time now but the populace keeps refusing it.
You don't want it? Fine. Give me all the vaccine and a needle and I'll fucking overdose.
It'll be the best day of my life."